HRWiki talk:STUFF

From Homestar Runner Wiki

Show Page Problem?

When I attempt to add my name to a vote and click "show page", it brings me up to that toon's stuff page (ie STUFF/mile) rather than the original STUFF page with all the facts on it. Is this a glitch? Its a little troublesome to have to click back and then back again to get back to the STUFF page. -- Tony Stony 14:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's normal, because the only edits to the actual STUFF page are adding more subpages. There's a "back to STUFF index" link on every fact. --Jay (Talk) 16:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

got it. thanks~ --Tony Stony 16:59, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good Jorb

Much, MUCH better, guys. Great job. {gives round of applause} -- Joshua 18:38, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Well done It's Dot Com, Tom, Jay, and anyone else who was involved with this. This incarnation of stuff should really cut down on the flaming and the confusion of the old way. One question: what if the vote is a tie when two weeks is up? Do we go into sudden death? (exprobably not) Does decline win automatically? (would make sense to me) Accept?-- —Tony Stony ^{Talk | Edits} 19:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I also agree, it looks great! I think that if the two weeks are up and it's a tie, then it just stays up longer until the tie is broken. Homestar Coder 19:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I actually used it for real the first time today, and it is so easy to see at a glance how each fact is doyng. I mean doing. I'm really glad we got this done. — It's dot com 19:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And now I have gotten to STUFF two new real facts using the new method—so simple, anyone could use it! — It's dot com 22:50, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It looks great! Much more easier, although it takes a little longer to add a new fun fact, it's still way better! And it's really easy to count the votes! Thank you to all that were involved in re-organising STUFF (Jay did the tedious work of launching STUFF, changing all the fun facts to the new templates and everything). «Rob» 05:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just did the grunt work. I helped with a little of the formatting stuff, but most of the design (as far as I see it) was IDC's. --Jay (Talk) 05:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I meant. I also like how you can now add individual STUFF'd fun facts to your watchlist, instead of watching the whole page. I used to never go to STUFF because of how messy it was, but now I visit the page heaps. «Rob» 06:05, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

gasp! Oh. My. Gods. I. Love. It. Oh. So. Much! single deuce 1:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Candidates for speedy verdicts

I propose the following guidelines for closing facts before the two-week time period is complete:

• After 4 days, a unanimous vote of at least 8
• After 1 week, a unanimous vote of any number
• After 1 week, a vote in which one side has at least 8 more votes than the other AND the ratio of votes is at least 3 to 1
  (for example: 9 to 1, 12 to 4, 15 to 5)

— It's dot com 19:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's pretty close to the criteria that I use(d) to close STUFFs quickly. I have been known to close a STUFF that's 10-0 (or higher) after just a couple of days though. -- tomstiff 19:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I've never had a problem with items being closed that are just taking up space. I wrote these guidelines not too long ago in an attempt to codify our policy. — It's dot com 19:39, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've taken your advice and closed a couple of items quite early when they met the following criteria: unanimous or overwhelming vote with a double-digit lead. "Overwhelming" to me is a vote ratio of at least 4 to 1, preferably 6 or more to 1. The sooner it's closed after opening, the bigger the lead has to be. Also, if nobody votes on an item for over a day, but other items are heavily traficked, then (again, depending on the vote) it might be time to shut the former down. Judging these is becoming as much an art as a science. — It's dot com 04:47, 27 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Verdicts

Okay, I've set up some more templates and closed some facts. I think the verdict notices should move to the respective talk pages after a few days or so; then the STUFF templates can be deleted and the STUFF links can be removed from the articles. I've got to run right now, but tomorrow I'll write up the procedures for closing items. — It's dot com 01:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All right, I've written the instructions for How to close an item. The instructions are not for novices, so I don't know whether they should go on the main STUFF page or not. — It's dot com 02:49, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't fix everything

Apparently, as cool as this system is, there's still the plague of "Accepting a fact because I like it, even if it's not (or questionably) factual." I'm especially disappointed in three of my fellow sysops for voting for such a fact, all of whom I thought had more sense than that. And... I just needed to get that off my chest. --Jay (Talk) 06:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that you beat around the bush instead of just saying that the fact is "You said doyng" and that I'm one of the sysops you're disappointed in. And I happen to think that the fact is true true true. Strong Bad lingers on that word far longer than any other word in that email. Disagreeing is fine, and accusing me outright of not having any sense is fine (although I can't speak for others), but there's no need to be all passive-aggressive. Homestar Coder 18:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gosh! I thought he was talking about the "Change of Pace" Family Guy reference! -- tomstiff 18:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Change of pace" was the old system. "Doyng" is on the new system and has three sysops in the "accept" column. (I was the one who originally stuffed and defended it.) Homestar Coder 18:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, I didn't accuse you of having NO sense. Anyway, I just needed to rant. --Jay (Talk) 01:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's true, that's true. You wouldn't be the first though. :p Homestar Coder 02:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neutral Voting

I'd like to see a column for neutral votes. Sometimes I'd like to be able to express my opinion on an item, even if my opinion is just "meh". -- tomstiff 18:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. Take a stand, one way or the other. A neutral vote is no vote at all, and just takes up space. — It's dot com 18:13, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With the new format, voting doesn't take up nearly much screen space. You're correct when you state that a neutral vote is no vote at all. But it does express an opinion. -- tomstiff 18:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An opinion of "meh" is not useful. Nobody cares if another user doesn't care, you know? Homestar Coder 18:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Shrug. Personally, I thought neutral voting was an interesting and useful part of the old STUFF system. -- tomstiff 18:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

BTW "neutral" doesn't necessarily mean "I don't care". If you don't care, don't vote! To me Neutral meant "I'm interested but I'm not sure" or "I'm thinking about it" or "Convince me". -- tomstiff 18:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's a reasonable point. Homestar Coder 18:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The arguments are there to convince you. A couple of times now, I've made up my mind (and even changed it) based on some good arguments. But I don't think we should have to write more arguments to sway those on the fence. For one, if the vote is close, there will be plenty of arguments to read, and if it's not close, one vote in the other direction isn't going to make that much of a difference. — It's dot com 18:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lawmakers (as an example) don't have to vote only "Yea" or "Nay" on a given subject . They have two other options. They can choose not to vote or they can abstain. You could look at a "neutral" vote as an abstention. -- tomstiff 18:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's a distinction without a difference. Not voting and officially abstaining have exactly the same effect: nothing. In our system, one must truly decide what his or her vote is, and only then does it go on record. I'll say again: you gotta take a stand. — It's dot com 19:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The difference is that abstaining is not anonymous. You've gone on the record, albieit blandly. Personally, I like to know who is on the fence (although you didn't always know that with the old system either). Obviously, the new system works fine without neutral voting. I just miss it a little. -- tomstiff 19:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as caring who the neutral voters are, I'll just say this: Meh. ;) — It's dot com 20:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neutral votes in the old format were meant for adding comments without the comment being counted as a vote. But we can do that with this system anyway. Since you can just elect not to vote, there really doesn't seem much point for a "Neutral" vote. --Jay (Talk) 19:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, what's the ppoint of a neutral vote? Anyone who hasn't voted is a neutral vote. There's no reason to have it. If you haven't chosen a side, don't vote! If you haven;t chosen a side but want toi state a comment, use the super handy ultra cool comments section. Ju Ju Master 01:26, 9 Aug 2005 (UTC)

if you really feel neutral vote on both sides. or if you fell strongly neutral vote twice for both sides. this is the only option that makes sense. csours 22:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, this discussion is months old. And don't vote twice. — It's dot com 22:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

How Did I Get Here?

Is there an easier way to get to the main STUFF page? I have to search it every time I want to come here. If not, can we put a link on the Main Page or the sidebar under navigation so we can vote on our lovely STUFF? single deuce 00:06, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

• The Stick. --Jay (Talk) 00:09, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)
  • Not bad, not bad. Clicking two links vs. typing one search. I'll have to decide. Thanks, Jay. single deuce 00:51, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)
    • Plus, STUFF redirects here. That's only five letters! - Kookykman(t)(c)(r)
      • Incidentally, so does stuff. That doesn't even require shift. — It's dot com

Fake User Names or Unlogged Regulars?

I haven't been deleting votes from some IPs because they use the User Names of regulars. But now IPs have been voting with user names that don't seem to be real (for instance, Mix Ma$ta' has made zero edits.) What to do? --Jay (Talk) 21:42, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I've been noticing this, and been thinking, "uh oh." I think all anonymous-ip votes need to be deleted, even if it is the known ip of a regular user. We should draw the line at "Must be logged in." Period. This would take a lot of work to maintain, though. But it would be worth it if we could stop any exploiting of the system. -BazookaJoe 21:46, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

"You must be logged in when you vote" was one of the original instructions I wrote for the page, but I haven't been enforcing it for known users because I didn't want to come across as too strict. It always peeves me a little, though, when users don't log in. (I usually just stay logged in, although I know all users don't have their own computer and thus can't do so. But signing in seriously takes about 6 seconds, so there's no good excuse for not.) Concerning Mix Ma$ta', it seems an anonymous IP created a userpage but not an account. That's... unusual. — It's dot com 23:50, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that it IS that unusual... --Jay (Talk) 04:35, 7 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for being late, but... "Mix Ma$ta" is actually a nickname for "The Mu," a common fanstuff wiki user. - Joshua

I have a question

Is there a link to the stuff pages, because it's kinda tiring searching for the stuff'd things.

I think what you are asking for is all here: HRWiki:STUFF -BazookaJoe 14:09, 11 Jul 2005 (UTC)

No, I mean like let's say the new strong bad email, I wanna link to the page of the strong bad email stuff'd facts.

End of witty comments

Thank god for this new system. Finally, I don't have to put up with people who type "DECLINATION TO THE MOOOON!!!!!!" rather than just "Decline." That stuff can be annoying after awhile. —Gafaddict (Talk | Contribs.) 07:02, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I think I know why some people write stupid Fun Facts.

It's just that they are so exicted to see their addiditons to the Wiki. -Kinsey

That's very true. (But we've still gotta weed 'em out.) — It's dot com 21:10, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I mentioned this earlier, but it might have gotten lost in all the hustle and bustle: A quick tip: You can sign your name on talk pages simply by typing four tildes (~~~~). That will automatically create a link to your user page and a timestamp.

Clean Up

It seems like there are too many completed fun facts on the STUFF page. It needs to be cleaned out. -- Super Sam 11:51, 23 Jul 2005 (UTC)

They get cleared about every two weeks or so. I went ahead and did it this morning. I must say, though, that even though there were a lot of closed items on the page, thanks to the new format it was still quite tidy. — It's dot com 16:58, 23 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Table of Contents

I used the wonder of "show preview" to see what this page would be like with a table of contents. What I found was a useful and non-obtrusive link to all the fun facts. Maybe we should add it to the page? - Joshua 03:47, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I checked it out too, and I agree. --Jay (Talk) 03:58, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Two reasons not: First, the page is designed to make you, or at least hopefully a new user, read the instructions. Second, it's designed to make users scroll across various items. That way, if anything is new (like a revision) or if they forgot to vote on an item, they'll notice it.

If you've already voted on older items, that's okay, because the newer items are always at the top, and scrolling past the instructions really isn't that far. Also, whenever you reach a STUFF subpage from an article, it always takes you directly there. Then, when you click "back to STUFF index", it takes you to the top of the items, not the top of the page. Finally, because we are doing a better job clearing out items, there often aren't very many on the page (in fact, a couple of days ago there were only two open items). — It's dot com 03:59, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for bringing up an old topic, but if the purpose is for people to read the instructions, why don't we put the TOC below the instructions? - Kookykman(t)(c)(r)

Well, that wasn't the only purpose listed above. — It's dot com 17:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

My eyes!

Ahh! What;s with the new STUFF colors? They are blinding! Please, reconsider your choice of colors,at leat maked it match with the wiki's colors (which seem to be blue and white, or grey maybe) Thanks for reading, have a nice tray-er.. day. - Ju Ju Master 00:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Where are you talking about, exactly? — It's dot com 00:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The bright yellow tables, in my opinion they do not go well with the white background.. - Ju Ju Master 22:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I still don't know which ones you mean. If you're talking about the ones that show you where to put arguments and votes, then that's the way it's always been since the overhaul several months ago. If you're talking about the headers, then I must disagree with you. They look way better than they used to; they're actually legible now. — It's dot com 23:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm tlaking about the tables at the top, with the links to how to STUFF a fact, how to votew, and those things. Couldn't they be light blue? Yellow just clashes with the blue and white theme of the wiki. - Ju Ju Master 16:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Ju Ju Master here. They don't look very...wiki-ish. - Kookykman(t)(c)(r)

Not "wiki-ish"? Maybe you should look at this Wikipedia page, which has exactly the same format. At any rate, the yellow of the tables was chosen specifically to contrast with the blue of the links and the highlights, and also to draw attention so that people might actually see them. As for that particular yellow, it has been in use here for months, and it's a muted yellow—hardly what someone could call blinding. If you want to see light blue and gray, just scroll down to the items. ;) — It's dot com 21:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

This was a long time ago, but yeah, I 'gree with dot com. It looks fine like this, and now you can read it. — _talk Bubsty _edits 03:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit links for every voting list?

{copied from Template:STUFF/Fall_Float_Parade}:
Would it be too much to alter the template so that revisions also have their own edit button? I think it would be much helpful and less confusing. EVEN BETTER: have each vote section (for and against) have their own edit buttons so that people can be sure to be voting in the right section.) I know this belongs in some talk page somewhere, but I don't know where and I do not feel like looking for it right now. Thanks! — Stux

Strongly seconded!! When a fact gets three or so revisions, and say you want to vote for the second one, scrolling through all the code and still getting your vote into the right place can be frustrating at best, and potentially bewildering for the inexperienced! —AbdiViklas 22:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I've always wondered why we don't have an [edit] tab for revisions... Tis frustrating sometimes. Full support here. --DorianGray

You must grant, however, that a fact with two or three revisions is quite unusual. And often people need to switch their vote in order to vote for a revision, or they may need to decline more than one revision at once. That said, I will look into adding this feature. — It's dot com 22:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. An edit button for each column (accepts and declines) seems excessive. If people can't review their vote after it's been cast, then they'll be no better off than the Floridians who couldn't tell whether they had punched a chad on their ballots or not. — It's dot com

Second It would be quite simple, really. Just replacing the <big> tags around the code with ===== would do it. Perhaps a note should be left here? — Lapper (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

That didn't work. — It's dot com 22:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not so convinced of the rarity of multiple revisions; seems like the STUFFs for most of the last few major 'toons have included them. I agree, though, that it would be unfortunate to lose the ability to edit multiple revisions at once. Maybe it could be like Fun Facts, where there's one edit link for all of Fun Facts and then individual ones for the sub-headings? —AbdiViklas 22:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking over the archives, even for recent toons, it's not that common, although it has happened a bit more because people have been a little haphazard with the revisions. Making the revision into a subsection was exactly what I tried to do, but it screwed up all the sections, such that when I clicked on edit all I got was a blank screen. I'll research it more when I have some time to concentrate on it. — It's dot com 22:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The headers did not work correctly? Strange. I do remember encountering some time ago a page that, when rendered, had the edit buttons point to the wrong section? Perhaps the fact that we're using templates to introduce the indices and in reality cannot edit the template'd code without a subst may be the reason why you're getting empty pages. --Stux 16:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Stuff Voting Procedure

I've noticed for some time now that the current voting procedure is rather biased when we are dealing with facts that have proposed revisions. What I mean is that when a fun fact in question has a revision posted for voting, the vote is humongously biased against declining both votes. What do I mean by this? I we see the vote for the first fact Ouch! Buzz Buzz Buzz and its two revisions. Anybody can vote to decline all three revisions.

That is one voter can affect the decline vote of all three revisions. However, that same voter can only vote positively in one of the three revisions listed. They do have the option to decline the other revisions, but can only accept one. Here is the bias: suppose we have 10 voters voting for the aforementioned revision. Each revision can each have up to 10 decline votes. Thus making it look like 30 people voted. However the accept votes must be (understandably) divided by the 10 people voting. This makes it *really* easy for a fun fact to be completely declined by a minority of voters. Yes voters can change their votes to other revisions, but they must generally be actively notified of such need by other interested voters (in a form of voter's activism). If you add up the number of accept votes, it is clear that the voters want some form of the fact to be accepted. But like i said the bias will likely land the fun fact declined. Don't you just love politics? I couldn't think of a reasonable voting scheme alternative until now: we could make the declines vote an alternative "revision". That is if we have a fun fact that has a revision, then we'd have:

1. the original fact (vote only to accept)
2. revision 1 (vote only to accept)
3. revision 2 (vote only to accept)
4. decline votes (all votes of people who decline all 3 revisions)

Voters would only be allowed to vote on one of these 4 categories. Thus the vote is evenly divided between the 4 options. Actually, even this proposed revision has bias in it. (a 1/4th majority would only be needed to decline the revision). A better tally would be to have the decline votes outnumber the sum of revision votes (i.e. 1/2 of voters have to vote to decline). Optional: If the revisions win, and the decline votes have a majority (i.e. less than 1/2 voters, but greater than the votes for any of the other 3 revisions), then a revote can be made so that those who declined the fact can vote for whatever revision they deem best. (Or they could do so preemptively, have a "secondary vote" in case the declines lose). end optional section.

It's a mess, I know. Fair voting isn't easy to achieve, and is still being hotly debated by many scholars and politicians alike. Some real-world proposals range from a staggered voting scheme (everyone votes for their #1 candidate choice, their #2 choice, and so on; ties are broken by the #2, #3 choices, etc.), a weighed voting scheme (like the staggered, only that the #1 choice has a certain amount of points, #2 has less points, etc. and the winner would get the sum of points -- much like the way racing videogames determine the winner of a circuit), and the "let it be" scheme (that is, the way the US system works and many other countries). Some of the newer schemes have been implemented in countries in Australia and England if I remember correctly. Every system has its own inherent bias unfortunately. Not many people realize that the vote can be influenced simply by choosing a different voting scheme that "seems" fair. Personally, I don't mind the US voting system at all, recent controversies and all. The recent german vote, to me, seemed stranger than anything. (Wow, what a tangent!, anyway back to the topic.) You may say that the current STUFF scheme resembles the US system, but it does not: the US system does not have a "decline" option to where you couldn't have a president or senator or governor take office. You must choose "one of the lesser evils". With STUFF, things are different. The decline option introduces a whole new set of complexities that must be appropriately dealt with.
--Stux 16:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh and I forgot: on the technical side of things, if the above proposition, or one similar to it is adopted, we may likely need to create new templates so as to not mess our current vote archives since their inherent structures are different. --Stux 16:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

It took me a lot of reading and re-reading, but I think I finally got my brain up to speed with what you're saying. My first response was "Of course someone can vote against all but only for one! What if someone doesn't approve of any of them? But we can't have multiple versions of the fact on the page, so someone can only approve one." But then I tried harder to understand your proposal: You're saying that voting for a given revision assumes a decline for the other revisions, right? I.e. if I vote for #3 I don't have to explicitly vote against #s 1 & 2. Thus the "vote only to accept" stuff; at the end we'd just award it to the revision with the most votes. You lost me with the part about the 1/4th majority; wouldn't it only take one voter more than the winning revision had to decline it? I.e. if the voting breaks down 1-3-2, then it would only take the remaining 4 voters to decline it.

But moving on from understanding your concerns to critiquing them: This would involve difficulties of notifying people who've already voted as well. Every vote with revisions starts its life as a simple "up or down vote" (to use a trendy phrase). Presumably some will start voting for it and some against it. Now a revision's introduced. We change both to "vote only to accept"—and do what with the existing declines? They can't be assumed to be decline-alls. We'd have to notify them and ask them to come back and take a stand on the current revision; either vote for the new one or decline all. This would have to be repeated with each new revision!

Mightn't a simpler answer be to keep the current system and somehow automatically notify previous voters when a revision is made? (Or make the reviser manually do it, but I don't like that idea.) But also there's a compelling argument for simply letting voter activism and voter apathy take their natural courses. After all, we're not electing the next president; outsiders have more than once marvelled at how deathly serious we take things around here, for fans of a cartoon. One could argue that if one cares enough about their vote they can jolly well check up on it, or conversely if someone can't be bothered to log in more than once a month and their vote gets wasted, tough cookies to them. —AbdiViklas 03:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse my ignorance, but why vote at all? Just add it the same way everything else is. If a single item is disputed then "vote" or discuss it if necessary. BrokenSegue 04:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Good question, Broken Segue. The reason, as far as I can tell, is that we have disputes about our Fun Facts all the time. I don't know what it's like at Wikipedia, but people debate whether or not x is a reference to y on a regular basis. Originially, STUFF was largely just a vote/discussion (look at the votes archived on talk pages before this summer for examples). It was changed because we had trouble with things like ad hominem attacks on people during the voting and because the votes and arguments were getting confusing (for the most famous example of this, see this infamous debate. The newer procedure is cleaner and, IMHO, easier to use. I suppose if we didn't have disputes about Fun Facts so often, it wouldn't be necessary, but as the situation here is now, I find it useful. Heimstern Läufer 04:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

wow, you are right. Sounds like some people need to take some chill pills. That's the problem when not all facts need to be verified from a source...it's all just speculation. Still, you could approve the general idea of a fact and iron out the wording later. It seems silly to have 3 alternate versions with different wordings. The issue is, is the fact true. BrokenSegue 04:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

First off, thank you all for your thorough and well thought out responses. I know it presented a lot to digest. To clarify things: I realize now that I made a mistake when I stated thr 1/4th majority for the decline votes. I mistakenly assumed that the other three votes were evenly distributed, then a 1/4th majority in the declines would work, but that may not always be the case of course. Abdi's example makes more sense: all you need is one more vote than the leader to decline: so if the accept revision vote is 1-3-2 and the decline vote is 4, then all three revisions get declined even though there are 6 voters in favor of some sort of revision.

You can see that this is exactly the same thing that is currently going on: take the same 10 voters, those who voted accept voted 1-3-2 as in the example before, and suppose they abstained from declining the others. Now suppose just 4 different voters voted decline on each of the three revisions. All three revisions will easily get declined. The votes would be worse if those who voted accept for some revisions vote decline for the others. See what I mean? Not even voter apathy is required to turn down revisions, those who want to see revisions passed must actually fight an uphill battle to do so (they'd have to convince all the other voters to "switch to their side" and "gang up" against the naysayers).

You are right though Abdi, it is a hassle in any case to have to have people come back and vote again on the same thing twice (unless a new revision was proposed between the time they voted and "now"). However, their vote should not be weakened simply because a new revision was proposed. The original Wikipedia voting system (from which I assume this was derived) does not quite have the problem since i've only seen it being used for keep/delete votes for pages. They have no need to make revisions and so they don't run into this problem.

BrokenSegue's idea is a very good one (I was thinking about something like it but couldn't come up with something decent): have two different types of votes within the same topic. One would be wether you want to accept the fun fact or some sort of revision for it, or just decline it altogether. The second vote would be for what revision you would vote for, including the original version (you could abstain from voting for any revision). The revision with the most votes would win, only if the accept votes defeated the decline votes. And it would be all done in one fell swoop. --Stux 16:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't read this whole discussion (because it was too darn long), so tell me if I didn't get the gist right. It has been evident to me for a while that we need to be able to accept the idea of an item separate from the actual wording. When the system was set up, it was pretty much unheard of to propose a revision to an item that was already on its way to being accepted. Revisions were a last resort when the original item was going down in flames. Lately, however, revisions have been a little more willy-nilly, to use a techinical term. What would be the fairest way to implement a change? A third column, perhaps? (Forgive me if this is already mentioned above, but I'm really in a hurry and am not going to read it before I post this reply.) "Accept if revision fails", or something like that? Or should we allow users to accept more than one revision? Somebody work up some mock-ups. I will when I get a chance later tonight or tomorrow. — It's dot com 22:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) That [Stux's new proposal] has promise. I still can't quite imagine it in action, largely because it assumes that fairly often people will be strongly for or strongly against, but not care that much about the differences between revisions. On the contrary, taking the current STUFF as an example: the one about Marzi & bees and the one about Marshie both have three revisions, and I'm definitely in favor of one specific revision of each and very much against the others. I'm still not convinced that the inequity you're perceiving is really that inequitable: Without revisions, each vote is simply up or down. If we consider each revision individually, it still stands or falls based simply on votes for or against. If the accept votes have less agency, it's because they're disunified; they may or may not prefer a different revision to no fact at all. And again, if they are willing to switch their vote in order to see a revision win, the ball is in their court to do so.

Now wait, a minute; for what I'm saying to be true (and I do think this is a possible solution), there would have to be a clearer statement of when a STUFF vote expires. I would probably hold out on my favored revision until the last minute, then switch to a secondary choice as the deadline got close. Without knowing when the last minute is, though, I'd probably sit tight. For it to really be equitable, we should have an automated system that notified people when facts they had a vote in were drawing to a close, since it's pretty naive to expect anyone to keep track of all of them (when you're putting STUFF deadlines in your DayPlanner, you know you're too involved with the Wiki!).

But on another note, I'm not so concerned about it being hard to get a fact accepted. As BrokenSegue pointed out, pretty much every STUFF vote deals with issues that can't be proven evidentially (if, for instance, TBC say something about it in a commentary, then it would be silly to STUFF it). This is a knowledge base, and the goal should be to keep it as accurate as possible. While I think all these "maybes" and "possiblies" should be documented, since it's edifying to know about them, even if they're not proven, that already happens through the STUFF process itself and Talk page entries (like this one). (Arguing against myself, though, if a majority of users like a fact and it still gets voted down, and can't subsequently be added since it's "been through STUFF," is that really the Wiki Way? I'm not sure I understand the Wiki Way. Which is more important, accuracy or equity?) —AbdiViklas 22:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You guys are making this too complicated. There have been 202 items that have gone through the process since we adopted the new format, and every last one of them has been closed according to a consensus of voters. (Some votes, naturally, are closer calls than others.) The standard voting period is two weeks. This is usually twice as long as is necessary to determine the will of the community (sometimes it's fourteen times too long). After a week or so, I feel comfortable closing an item if it is currently enjoying a 3 to 1 ratio (either for or against) and has a minimum number of total votes. If something has been open only a few days, I use a standard of 4 or 5 to 1, depending. Items are usually closed immediately when the ratio reaches 20 to 1. At that point, if someone were going to propose a revision, they would have by that point. When deciding when to render verdicts, I also use common sense, such as the relative speculation in the item and whether heavy contributors have voted for or against it. I am quite confident in how things are going and believe that the process works. If there is ever a gray area (which is most rare), I leave a note on a talk page. If anyone believes the wrong verdict has been rendered, he or she can bring it up for appeal. Let me clarify that last statement. An appeal cannot be brought simply because one disagrees with the verdict; it must be shown that there was something wrong with the process. Possible reasons would include new evidence not available at the time of the vote, a belief that the majority of voters misunderstood the question, voter fraud (unlikely but technically possible), or if the vote were closed too early (although, as I explained before, votes that are even remotely close are not closed before two weeks (and some are even held over a couple of days, just in case there are any stragglers (which there never have been (I believe due to the attention spans these days (okay, there are too many open parentheses here, so this will be the last nested one))))). There is only one item, by the way, that I myself would appeal, and it's from the old format days (and it's not even "the infamous one"). I just haven't gotten around to it. In the case of revisions, I am again confident that the best revision has made it into the articles. Also, note that there's nothing stopping people from discussing the wording of an accepted item and tweaking it later, so long as the essence of the item doesn't change (this has happened, incidentally). Goodness! I've written a novel here! — It's dot com 02:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, everybody's doin' it! And yeah, I lean back to my earlier statements that, while I see the math of your original concern, Stux, I'm not sure it's actually an operational inequity. If "accept" voters really, really wanted to overcome the free-ranging power of the decliners, they have simply to contact each other and move their votes to a popular candidate. If they can't conscience the popular version, or if they don't care enough about their vote to check on it within two weeks, then it's perfectly right for it to be declined. —AbdiViklas 02:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Just one more question, Dot com: we have stopped using butterfly ballots, right? ;-) Seriously, though, I wanted to thank you for writing that novel; it answered some questions I've had for a long time but never gotten around to asking. I also wanted to weigh in and say that I, too, feel that the current system is a good one and probably doesn't need much tweaking. (Although I still can't decide how to vote on the "sensitive to bees" fact...) Heimstern Läufer 02:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I know you were just joking, but the old version was very much like the type of confusion butterfly ballots (supposedly) caused, and the current system of clear-cut accepts/declines was devised to make things simple. Admittedly, revisions do make things sticky on occasion, which is why we have people watching out for the system. — It's dot com 02:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I'm definitely aware of the old system: If you look a little higher on this discussion, you'll see that I referred Broken Segue to the most infamously convoluted STUFF vote on the old system. I may not have been around at the time, but I have read a lot of old talk pages. And whenever I did, it was so freakin' confusing to read those cussed STUFF votes! Thus, I know that there was some truth behind the butterfly ballot joke. And I definitely prefer the new system. Heimstern Läufer 03:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Another idea

I don't mean to make the situation more complicated by adding more thoughts, but I think this idea is worth considering. I think this way is more wiki-ish and less bureaucratic. Why not let people create these votes only in opposition to already existing facts. It would work like this.: Person A adds Fact X to the article. Person B likes it, but rewords it slightly. Person C hates X and starts a vote to get it removed. The vote is, "should we keep this fact? yes or no?" During the vote people may reword it as they please or propose secondary version but there is just one vote for the fact. If X is voted down then it is removed never to be added again otherwise it stays. Terrible facts could be "speedily" removed without a vote. BrokenSegue 00:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Except for the "one vote for the fact" (if I'm interpreting that correctly), this is exactly how the process already works. — It's dot com 01:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Source Code

I just tried to add a new section, but the source code provided a rather sloppy syntax. I think it needs to be cleared up. It's possible to use other templates and edit them to avoid this problem. However, the course should still be fixed in case there ever aren't any. --AnarchyBalsac

I think perhaps you need to look more closely at the instructions. If that doesn't work, I need more information: What were you trying to do? What were the steps you took to do it? How did what happened differ from what you expected? — It's dot com 05:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Please improve code previews to work with link code

I briefly skimmed over the discussions above, so it's possible this was already mentioned, but I'd like to formally request that when you use {{stuffnew}} and {{stuffrevisecode}} and then press "Show Preview", the text inside the code is enclosed in <nowiki> tags. So, for instance, if I type:

{{stuffrevisecode|The [[Wikipedia:Blue Angels|Blue Angels]] flew right past us}}

...the code shown would look like:

...and not:

This would make the STUFF process much easier, IMO. (Note, my use of <nowiki> in the source code for this comment is for display purposes only. I don't know how the STUFF code itself actually works.)

—  KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I have already tried to do that. As far as I can tell, there isn't a way to automatically do it. But see the last tip on HRWiki:STUFF/Help. (Does nobody read those pages?) — It's dot com 06:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, sorry - had not read the page. Thanks. —  KieferSkunk (talk) — 06:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Resource Prominence

I was wondering if the "Resources" tab in the protected template could be renamed "Important Resources" or even "Step by step guide" to bring a little more attention to the importance of the tab. The about page could be linked again from that section too. --Stux 18:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I have changed it to "Technical instructions". There are already two links to the About page in "What is this page and when should we use it?", which itself is set in big, bold type. I don't see how another link would do any good. The fact is that certain people will never read instructions, even if you set them in 100pixel-high type and make them red and blinking. Every one of those links has been there since day one of the new format, highlighted in gold (the easiest color for the eye to see), and yet I still see people who copy and paste old items to try and make new ones, or who go through process backwards (they begin by editing the STUFF index and finish up by editing the article, instead of the other way around). — It's dot com 00:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I did, however, put a link to the About page on both the Help and Quickref pages. — It's dot com

Yeah I was kinda hoping for 150pt font size in bold with those red blinking letters you mentioned and not only that, a feature that would not let them do anything with STUFF unless they actually read the instructions and provided proof of such reading by submitting and page long essay. That or $5. Yeah... even then they'll ignore it. Oh and great idea about adding links to the About page! --Stux 03:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

When does it end?

Is it arbitrary? Are there rules? How does a STUFF end? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  08:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Normally they close two weeks after being opened, but if the voting is one-sided it may end early, see #Candidates for speedy verdicts above. --phlip ^T_C 11:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, those guidelines were proposed early and are more formal than our actual practice. A better section to read would be this one above. Suffice it to say, however, that nothing is ever closed early if the majority isn't overwhelming (unless the item can be shown to be patently false, of course). Out of curiositiy, why do you ask? — It's dot com 15:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiositiy. :) - Qermaq - (^T/C)  17:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Altering the STUFF'd fact

Earlier I reverted an anony's change to a STUFF. Someone (I'm sure in good faith) reverted me and I can see where the confusion is.

In the STUFF instructions here, we're told that we must be logged in to vote or edit arguments or offer revised STUFFs. But it never explicitly says we can't alter the STUFFed fact! I mean, it stands to reason you cannot alter the proposal, but shouldn't that be explicit in the instructions? I'd vote to add that prohibition to "notes about voting". - Qermaq - (^T/C)  20:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, under certain circumstances, you can alter the STUFF'd fact (although you must be logged in to do so). I know I've written about this somewhere else, but now I can't find it. Oh yeah, HRWiki:Glossary. You can reword an item (especially in the early part of its existence) without having to completely revise it. Also, in many cases it's best to leave a note when making a change like that. As for the edit in question, that was a substantial change to the meaning of the item, and if it were to move forward it would have to be proposed as a full revision. I see no reason to proceed with it, however, because it's just adding more speculation to something that's probably going to be declined anyway. — It's dot com 21:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so basically 1) No interaction with STUFF when not logged in, aside from posting arguments (but not revising), 2) No alterations to proposed item unless it improves, or at least doesn't change, the meaning. Do I get it? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

(1) No anonymous interaction at all, including posting arguments (although if all an anonny does is add an argument or comment, I'm loathe to remove it for fear of appearing to be limiting speech). (2) Right, if the item just needs a little tweaking, then it's okay to fix it. Or, for example, if part of the item is patently false and yet the accepts are somehow leading, it can be changed to make it true, so long as a clear note is left for everyone to see. If it really got crazy then I suppose we'd have to start the item over completely, but so far we've been able to prevent that. — It's dot com 21:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

POV STUFF?

From comments for Template:STUFF/candy product:

Should the title of this section be made more NPOV?

No.

Yes. - Qermaq - (^T/C) 

No. Let me explain. The STUFF page is, by definition, all about opinions, and, thus, POV. We've had clearly POV STUFF titles before and no one complained then.

Yes, as the wording of a STUFF item can certainly color one's perception of the fact. A more balanced title might lead the reader less, and should ideally always be strived for. - Qermaq - (^T/C) 

Leaving the heading is like a voting booth saying "Vote for Senator Bob Statesman" in big letters. This is a place for voting, and nobody has the right to try to influence a vote. Yes, this page is all about opinions, but they belong under the clearly defined headings "arguments for" and "arguments against."

This isn't the place to discuss this. Go to this page if it bothers you so much. As I've said, we've had STUFF facts with clearly POV titles before, and no one complained then.

no one even complained with "worst reference ever" I R F 22:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

That's because the "worst ever" part was a reference to something else.

And, heck, there was a fact called "Similarity? I think so!" that got a unanimous decline! --Jay (Talk) 22:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Point is that even if POV was overlooked in the past it's still not a fair way to present STUFF. We used to keep slaves, too. Do we stick to that precedent? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, let's keep the scope of this discussion relevant. — It's dot com 22:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

As long as no one complains, then it's not a problem to have POV titles. But if someone complains, then for crying out loud by all means find a compromise and make the title NPOV. — It's dot com 22:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, while the 'slavery' comment isn't on the same level as voting on a cartoon fact, it remains that the policy should be to present STUFF in a manner that is fair and balanced, even if it hasn't always been done that way. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

What does NPOV mean?

No Point Of View. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Neutral, actually. --Jay (Talk) 22:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Seems like either would work. — It's dot com

STUFF titles get changed quite a bit. Well, not often, but certainly not never. (Usually the case is that the title isn't clever enough and some thinks of a cleverer one.) If there's a title you don't like because it's POV, then change it. But for truly horrible facts that just get STUFF'd to make an anonny see reason, the the STUFFer's first title is probably fine. — It's dot com 22:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with that. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I don't care all that much, but I'd like to raise a counter argument: what one person sees as unreasonable may not be what another sees as unreasonable. -Unknownwarrior33 22:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, some things are clearly biased. If it is in the gray area where one person sees bias and another does not, it should be changed so no one sees bias. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Sorry if I misunderstood you. -Unknownwarrior33 22:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)