Editing HRWiki talk:Subtitles

== From Da Basement ==
''Copied from [[HRWiki:Da_Basement#Subtitles]]:''
<blockquote>

Some of us have started working on subtitling Homestar Runner Flash cartoons to make them accessible to a wider audience. I would like to know what the HRWiki folks think about this. Should this be a part of the knowledge base wiki? Should it be separate? Would you help? The subtitles are based on the transcripts from the wiki, so there is a strong connection already. The [http://hstarsubs.awardspace.com/ subtitles project] is still beta, but it should work with Firefox and Internet Explorer. Most subtitles have been donated by Phlip from an older project, and I and Elcool have done the international ones. Check it out and let us know.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 22:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
: I personally know one person who'd be interested in that... --{{User:Jay/sig}} 22:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
::I strongly support having some way to intergrate the subtitles files into the wiki. As a non-native speaker sometimes I need to go over the wiki transcript just to see what a word or two means. This way , it's already inside the toon window itself. Also, we could open the door for people with hearing problems who still want experiance Homestar Runner like the rest of us. Some flash artists like Weeble from Weeble and Bob and the people behind Too Much Spare Time Animation have already added subtitles to some of their toons. So If TBC aren't going to do it themselvs, we are here for them. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 22:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
: The .xml file for Exp Film's Commentary doesn't work. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 22:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
::Cheers, fixed the link. Also, listening to the commentary is currently not possible anyway, because of Flash security measures :-/ And I forgot to upload the experiment film subs, will have to wait until I'm back home.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 23:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
:::We need this in the [[User:Phlip/Greasemonkey|Greasemonkey script]], pronto. ¤ {{User:The Mu/sig}} 02:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
:Well, I showed it to the person I previously alluded. The biggest reason I got into H*R in the first place was because it allowed me to share the gift of Homestar with this person, who cannot hear. She says she likes the subtitled stuff better than the Wiki. "But no offense." --{{User:Jay/sig}} 03:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
::Seriously, you just made my day :-D {{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Deaf watchers, eh? I'd assume ''captions'', as opposed to ''subtitles'' would be more important then, yes? (For the uninitiated: subtitles transcribe the words, captions transcribe all the sound effects too.) {{User:Phlip/sig}} 05:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Take 'em as they come. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 05:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
:Okay, let's just say, hypothetically, I wanted to make one of these. How would I get the frame numbers to start/stop each line on? And how would I test it? --{{User:Jay/sig}} 06:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
::We haven't quite worked out the standards for subtitles/captions yet, so the format may change a little. But if you want to try it now, then here's how you do it: You need Phlip's Firefox [[User:Phlip/Greasemonkey|Greasemonkey script]]. This will give you a seek bar for Flash toons from Homestarrunner.com. It also displays the current frame number. Then you grab one of the XML files from the subtitle site, scoop it empty, and use it as a skeleton. You probably also want to copy the text of the transcript into this file and split it up into short sections or sentences that you want to display as one title. Then use the seekbar to find the first and last frame numbers for each of the sections. It gets easy after you've done it once or twice. And you get to know the toon pretty well. Also note that each character has his or her own colour code. I'll put a page online soon with some more detailed hints, and I'll come up with a way of testing the titles. &mdash; I'm still not sure where to put the page with instructions. Do people believe this should be an HRWiki project, or should it be separate? {{User:Loafing/sig}} 06:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Aside from the frame numbers, I'd pretty much figured that all out. I have the beginnings of a [[Halloween Potion-ma-jig]] .xml file, but without frame numbers. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 06:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Sound promising :-) I'll come up with a test page soon(ish). And you've heard that before, but... you should really be on IRC ;-) {{User:Loafing/sig}} 06:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::I've never successfully managed to join IRC when a useful conversation is taking place. Plus, I have issues getting to it. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 06:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright you guys, I finished the .XML file for Cool Tapes. [[User:The Mu/subtitleCoolThings|Ding!]] ¤ {{User:The Mu/sig}} 03:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a talk page specifically for this project? I thought of some things to discuss, but we'd flood Da Basement. I think there should be some sort of central Wiki page for this project, even if it's in a User space. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
: I'm not in the mood for IRC right now, but I figured I'd give an update. I have all of the text in my .xml file. I do not, however, have any frame numbers past the three Coach Z/Pom Pom scenarios. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 06:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)<blockquote>
</blockquote>

== Uh oh. ==

Okay, I've got a serious problem with the [[Halloween Potion-ma-jig]] subtitiles.

The individual lines Homestar has at the end of the 'toon (A bottle of this, essence of that) are not stored through frame numbers. What's worse, I can't even say something like "A bottle of ''(something)'' water" or something like that, because different lines are different lengths, meaning I have to conform to whichever one is ''shortest'' or I get glitches. Thoughts?

The individual options work fine throughout the whole 'toon, and I suspect that the Homestar transformations work fine as well (though I haven't thoroughly tested.) --{{User:Jay/sig}} 04:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

:Ergh, yeah, that's the biggest problem, that we can only subtitle stuff that actually correlates to frame numbers. If audio is triggered by ActionScript independently from graphics frames, we're doomed. The same goes for sequences that are loaded separately, such as the Experimental Film Commentary or the Very, Very Little Girl easter egg. I'll have a look at that, and I'll get back to you ASAP.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:: Okay, the problem wasn't what I thought it was, and all known kinks are worked out. [[HRWiki:Subtitles/en/halloween2005mx]]. And with that... good nighzzzzzz... --{{User:Jay/sig}} 07:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:: The updates caused some formatting issues I don't like. Most specifically, anything italicized becomes mashed together with the surrounding words like''this''appears. Plus, when Homestar is dancing and Bubs is saying "Stick and move, stick and move", I originally put them on separate lines - when they appear as they do now, they look as though they're being said in turn rather than at the same time. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 17:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
::: Patience grasshopper, for the best things come to those who wait. By "best things" I mean "the Greasemonkey version of the subtitles" and by "wait" I mean "until you see that both of these come out correctly in that version" - "Stick and move" ''is'' on its own line, spaces around italics ''aren't'' destroyed, it actually pulls the XML stuff from the wiki itself, rather than this just being here for show, etc. I'm still working out some of the kinks (like it working perfectly for me, but failing silently without even an error message for someone else... yeah, that's just a kink), but expect at least a work in progress by tomorrow or the day after or so. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 18:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

== Now what? ==

Sbemail 6 is all good to go, but what now? THe page doesn't say. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 05:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:Didn't think anybody would come this far ;-) Put it on http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php/HRWiki:Subtitles/en/sbemail6, and then I'll copy it over to the external site. :-) {{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
::All up and running :-) Is the Klingon version next? ;-) {{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Ya, you just sit there and wait for that one. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 05:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Feel free to add other languages to [[HRWiki:Subtitles/Characters]]... <code>xml:lang="x-klingon"</code>, I think is the right way... {{User:Phlip/sig}} 06:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::Actually, it seems Klingon is [http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-tags/i-klingon registered with IANA], so the language code would be <code>xml:lang="i-klingon"</code>... it's even the example for <code>i-</code> language codes on [http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ this page]... {{User:Phlip/sig}} 07:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

== Non-Working Link ==

The link to the subtitle page doesn't work. Just so you know. --{{User:TotalSpaceshipGuy3/sig}} 14:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

:Sometimes Loafing's site is down. Wait a couple of minutes and it will be up and running. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 15:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
::It's a free hosting site, so we get what we pay for. It will all be better for Firefox users once Phlip has incorporated the subtitles into his Greasemonkey script. {{User:Loafing/sig}} 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:::At the meantime I added a mirror from my small wiki. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 19:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

== Emphasis ==
I'm having a problem with the emphasis codes. Whenever I add them, they italicize the text fine, but remove the spaces directly around the word. I tried <nowiki><i>, <em>, and <strong></nowiki> tags. - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 19:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
:Read my post [[#Uh oh.|above]]. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 19:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
::One workaround is to use <nowiki>&amp;amp;nbsp;</nowiki> to force a space. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 00:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== Namespace ==

It looks like there's gonna be a whole website's worth of these pages, so to keep them organized, I made the Subtitles namespace. I didn't move anything into the new namespace yet, first because I didn't know whether anything depended on the pages' being where they are now, and second because I can see arguments for the primary organization being by language (e.g. Subtitles:en/cheatar, Subtitles:en/ween03) or by toon name (e.g. Subtitles:chetar/de, Subtitles:chetar/en) and figured we should discuss it first. (By the way, true subpages are enabled for this namespace.) &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 00:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

:Looking at this [[:Category:Subtitles]], I believe that it makes sense to organize it by toon name.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 07:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::Also, can I add, since we're moving stuff anyway... can we have the names match the filename of the .html file, rather than the .swf? It's easier to code, that way. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 09:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Fine with me. Then we need to put the swf filename back in the <transcript> tag for the external script. {{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::::I made subcategories for the various languages, since all the pages can be seen just by viewing the <span class="plainlinks">[http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&namespace=102 list of pages]</span> in the namespace. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 15:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== New version ==

Go to [[HRWiki:Subtitles/Greasemonkey]] and install that... instructions are at the top. Be aware that this is just a beta... there's probably problems with it, and the (nonexistant) options interface isn't all that user-friendly. But it's there... now you can stop complaining about the old version not liking the formatting changes... {{User:Phlip/sig}} 06:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

:Good Jorb! I strongly recommend that everybody installs the Greasemokey script, because it actually uses the up-to-date subtitles from the wiki. The script on the external site has been updated somewhat as well, to fix the bugs mentioned in the previous sections.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 07:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== Question about Strong Bad Emails ==

When Strong Bad reads his email and types on his computer, are subtitles necessary? --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 14:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:Absolutely. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 14:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::Why? --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 14:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Because he doesn't always say what's on the screen. Look at the helium email for example. There are a few subtle differences between what he types and what he says. Check it out. Also, I remember watching an early one on the other site with captions, but with no sound. The email text wasn't captioned. But a comment he made in the middle of reading was. Now, if i had never seen this one before, how would I know where that comment referred to? In fact, with no captioning, how would I even know Strong Bad was reading out loud? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 14:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::::And another reason I just thought of - the English ones are templates for the foreign language versions. So having that in there makes it easier for a translator to simply translate the text without having to find new frame anchors for the text. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 20:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== Sound Effect Standard ==

What sound effects should be noted, and how should they be noted? One example is The Paper. My opinion is to not indicate the sound, as it's really not meaningful to the storyline at all. Even in toons like [[little animal]] The Paper's noise isn't as meaningful as what it looks like. Also, are we using Geddup Noise for the chair? Will we change to Chairscoot somewhere around email 84? Finally, we clearly don't need to note EVERY sound effect. Just the ones that are part of the storytelling, I'd say. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 14:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:I disagree. We should assume anyone using the subtitles cannot hear anything at all (and not necessarily because they're deaf; perhaps they're at work and can't turn the sound up). We should therefore caption all sound effects (unless in a particular case doing so would interfere with the dialogue), especially ones like "Preeeow", which signify events in the email. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

::Assuming a person is deaf, then is there value in describing to them, for example, that the background noise sounds like a scratchy record? I think there's such a thing as too far here, and it's really easy to hit the point of so much caption that you can't keep up.
::Also, if you were blind, the sound "Preeow" would be important, but you know that the Preeow is happening even with the sound muted because you see it come down. We have to indicate a ringing phone because we sure can't see it ringing, but we can see The Paper come down, so what does the sfx "Preeow" add to the subtitling other than clutter? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 19:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

:::As I said before, you don't have to assume someone is deaf. The sound could just be muted. Noting ''all'' sound effects are important, because the toon wouldn't be the same without them. And how do you know that a person who now is deaf doesn't know what a record scratch sounds like? As for clutter, the "preeow" is usually the only thing going on at that point. It would not be cluttered to include it. In fact, when you watch the toon without the sound, you don't assume that The Paper is making any noise just because you see it. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

::::I totally agree. Sound effects are an important part of the cartoons, and we should include them in the subtitles. Also, anybody who really doesn't like them, can turn sound effects off when they use the Greasemonkey script.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 21:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

::::I also agree: I think providing details about sound effects is often very important for catching all of the humor in a toon.  About the example about The Paper, I think it's clear that this is one of many running gags in the H*R universe that adds to the experience because of its frequent appearance.  Including the sound effect is the only way that a deaf, etc. person can share in that. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 21:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

:::::I agree with Qermaq. It would probably be better to show most, but not all sound effects. Otherwise, those who are deaf, or have his or her sound off, possibly missing important parts of the plot through clutter or the caption text moving too quickly. I don't think every sound effect is necessary when writing captions. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 21:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

::::::I like including the sound effects, I think it definetly adds to the experience.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 21:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

:::::::I think many sound effects are notable, mind you. I guess I just question the semantic point of giving a sound effect for, say, The Paper when it conveys no meaning. In one transcript I did (anything) I didn't bother to note the scooting sound of the chair when Homestar sits, as it's meaningless (and it isn't a Geddup Noise, clearly!) - but when the sound effect is important to the plot, of course it should be noted. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 21:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

== Welsh ==

I can make Welsh subtitles if anyone's interested. [[User:Strong Sader|Strong Sader]] 17:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. The subtitles don't show on my computer because it rejects the "<nowiki><br></nowiki>" in the code.
:Are you using Firefox? Did you install Phlip's scripts? And there should not be any <nowiki><br></nowiki>'s in the transcripts, they should be <nowiki><br/></nowiki>'s. If one is wrong, add the slash to the XML and try again. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::I have Internet Explorer, and I've saved the All-in-One scripts. [[User:Strong Sader|Strong Sader]] 17:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::All-in-one works with IE? Really now? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 17:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::::It didn't, I was just telling you my situation. [[User:Strong Sader|Strong Sader]] 17:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::Ok, but the subtitles not showing, as you said above - on all of them? None work for you, when viewed in Firefox? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 18:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== Problems with IE ==

My computer screen currently reads:
<blockquote> The subtitles file has been found unsafe for the following reasons:
file contains tags in CDATA note 'br'x5
</blockquote> 
anyone else have this problem? --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 18:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)P.S. replace ' with < or > respectively.
Now it says it x40

:On what page do you get this error? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::I went to the BETA page and clicked 'watch' and the computer came up saying this. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 18:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Try the depressio watch link. I know there's no br's in that one. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 18:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::::That works. Still, we need to fix the ones that say 'br'. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 18:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::Ok, here's the thing. If you run Phlip's scripts in Firefox, Firefox gets the transcript from the wiki. However, that old beta site runs off its own copies, and some of them are really old and not up to standards. If you could list the ones that are buggy, then Loafing could at some point fix the problem. And be sure, when using a line break in a transcript, to always use <nowiki><br/></nowiki>. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 18:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

After a check of the XML files for both depressio and 3 times halloween fun job (the one i tried earlier), I discovered that there are 'br /' in 3 times halloween fun job that the computer reads as just plain old 'br'. depressio doesn't have any 'br /' or 'br's. What '''I'''
think we should do is just get rid of the 'br /' and see how the subtitles run without them. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 18:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:You  and me edited it at the same time. Weird.
:Anyway, I'll try to come up with a list. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 19:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::After testing for a while, i've noticed that all of the ones with the error/bug still work if you wait for a while. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 19:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't spend too much time over this, it's already being fixed! The problem with the CDATAs will go away soon, as we don't use them anymore in the new format. I am currently moving all subs from the external server to the wiki, and within a day or so, the problem will have fixed itself.  Also, Super Martyo, I'm curious which IE version you are using. That's a very interesting warning it spits out.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:Too late. I have a list sitting right next to me. I did learn something, though. Stand-up does '''not''' work. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 19:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
::<blockquote>Also, Super Martyo, I'm curious which IE version you are using. That's a very interesting warning it spits out.</blockquote>
::I don't know what version i'm using. can someone tell me how to find out? --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 19:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Help -> About {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 19:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

::Gah, "stand-up" really doesn't work. I'll have to look into that after school. {{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

:::: IE Version 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519 --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 01:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

== Adding Flash File ==

Ok, I know it's not "later" yet, but re: <code><nowiki><transcript xml:lang="en-us" file="flashfile.swf" width="550" height="400"></nowiki></code>, do we need to edit all the transcripts to add that now? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
:Yes, please. The Greasemonkey script will work fine without them, but the external script needs them. {{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

== Links on individual pages ==

Should the only actual subtitle link be to an external site? Perhaps a link "Configure Mozilla Firefox to view this toon with subtitles" leading to Phlip's Greasemonkey All-in-one script should appear first, then the external link "View subtitles in Internet Explorer" later. And what about [http://www.opera.com Opera]? They have a healthy chunk of the market too. Does the external site work on Opera? If not, can it be configured to? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
:<strike>There are two subtitle links. One is to the external site that displays the subtitles under the Flash file, and the other one goes to the subtitle script in the Subtitles namespace. The subtitle script eventually leads to the page that tells people about the GM script. Yes, it's not that obvious. I could have the external script detect the browser and tell people that they should use the GM script, if they attempt to view the subtitles in Firefox. I'd prefer that to adding many how-to links on every toon page.</strike> As for Opera: yes, it does work. I've just tested it with Opera 9, and it works just fine.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
::There should now only be internal links to the subtitles scripts on each page. The template included in each subtitle script now provides a brief explanation of how to view the subtitles. It points to the GM script and also automatically links to the external viewer as an alternative.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

== Capitalization, punctuation, and spelling ==

We should standardize the capitalization and punctuation for the subtitles (like we do for the TGS transcripts). That is, we shouldn't use an emailer's bad capitalization and punctuation. And we should spell things exactly as Strong Bad (or whoever) ''pronounces'' them, not necessarily how they're typed. For example, on [[huttah!]], we wouldn't put "Lasko, Milwaukee, WI"; we should put "Lassss-kohhhh" (or similar), "Milwaukee, Wisacondasin". &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

:Very yes.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 21:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

::I agree on both counts.  I used "buh-heend" in [[Subtitles:sbemail88/en]], which I took right from the transcript where we describe how Strong Bad pronounces it.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 21:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Agree completely as well. (Well, except for how to spell Lasko, as that make makes it look like Strong Bad's spelling out the word. :P) We'll have to go through some of the already transcribed emails though, I think. {{unsigned|Joshua|22:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)}}
::::Heh, that's funny: I noticed what you just said and fixed it above before I read your comment here. (For those reading along, I had originally put "L-A-S-K-O", which looks like "el ay ess kay oh".) &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

== Loading subtitles... ==

I was watching a toon in German (what fun!) and it was weird to see "Loading subtitles..." in English. Can this be translated for the various languages? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 01:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:I'm sure it can. But where to stop? Should the menu options be internationalized as well? The error messages? The help pages that haven't been written yet? I think you do raise a valid point: If we make the Flash cartoons accessible for more people, what's they use if they don't understand the tools that are required to view the subtitles. On the other hand, this will make the whole system more complicated for us. We'd have another XML document that translates the user interface, similar to [[Subtitles:Characters]]. What do you think, Phlip?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 02:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::Where to stop indeed. Aside from the pure titillation value, we're doing this for accessibility, and accessibility should be the goal. There's not a job worth doing that's not worth doing right, and if we aim to make H*R accessible to people who cannot comprehend audible English speech, we must do the job right and see to it they actually can; otherwise, all our efforts are wasted. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 02:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:::I agree in principle. But nothing in this world is perfect, and we have to compromise at some stage. In the end, it comes down to how much work we are able/willing to invest in this, and I would like to remind people that Phlip and I have to program every little change into the two subtitle viewers. So whoever demands new functionality is more than welcome to submit the suggestions as a Javascript sample ;-) But seriously, internalization of the two viewers is probably not that complicated, but will take some time to implement, since the code has to be changed wherever text is presented to the user. And as I said, we have to discuss the scope of internalization. Even if the two viewers are internationalized, how do people who don't understand English know about them? How do they know about H*R in the first place? I think for now, we are already doing a good job at making the cartoon available to an audience that have problems with spoken English, or understand some written English. We're still trying ot get kinks out of the system, and I think we should focus on making the basics work first &mdash; while looking ahead to complete world domination, of course ;-) {{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Clarification: Yes, I think we should do that. Later on. Or sooner, with more developers involved. And we have to know what scope the project should have. {{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::I thought about doing this, and decided against it. Some notes: currently, if subtitles are turned off, the script doesn't hit the wiki. At all. For anything. The languages list is only loaded when you turn the option on, the subtitles themselves obviously only load if it's turned on. Everything else is self-contained, to save on hits to the wiki. And then the question of i18n comes up. To put the translations on the wiki would mean that everyone hits the wiki when they're using the script, not just the people watching with subtitles (which I'm guessing is a smaller group). Yes, it's cached, but it would still mean an increase in usually-unneeded traffic. And the script would fail completely if the wiki was down (sure, it could degrade gracefully to English, but it would take time for it to do so, 'cause it would have to wait for timeouts from the wiki server). The alternative is to just include the translations in the GM file itself, which would solve all of that, but it would make it much harder to add new languages later (users would have to upgrade every time a new language was added). As for the slightly smaller scope of just translating the "Loading" message, there's the same issue... if the translations are in the script they're hard to add to, and if they're on the wiki... do you want a "Loading translations of "Loading subtitles" message..." message? Should it be translated? You see where I'm going with this... To have "Loading subtitles" appear only after it had loaded the translations would be weird (and potentially confusing, especially if the wiki was down), to have it say "Loading subtitles" in English and then change to the other language after the translations are loaded would be even weirder... I can't see a way for it to work cleanly. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 04:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::Just to note: I never intended this to be a "can you get this done by tomorrow?" kind of thing. Certainly the limitations of the code weight in here too. Still, this would not be a terribly bad future aspiration, y'know? Using this as a stepping-stone toward a later stand-alone caosed-captioning Flash player. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

== Translation of Proper Names ==

So, for the non-English subtitles, the general trend so far has been to translate proper names.  This leads, for example, to a replacement of "Strong Bad" with "Stark Schlecht" for German subtitles and to a replacement of "Homestar" with "Étoile de Logis" for French subtitles.  Should we be doing this, or should we leave the proper names as they are.  For example, if my name happened to be "Hunter Smith" and a French newspaper was talking about me, they wouldn't change my name to "Forgeron de Chasseur".  For a better comparison, the French don't translate [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse Mickey Mouse] or [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugs_Bunny Bugs Bunny].

So, maybe this doesn't matter much &mdash; and maybe we keep doing it the way we're doing it because it's fun to find amusing translations of names into other languages.  After all, the likelihood that hordes of non-English speakers are going to suddenly begin appreciating Homestar Runner as a result of our efforts is scant.  I just thought it would be good to get a firm decision on the table early on in the game. 

Finally, to muddy the waters further, there are some proper names that probably ''should'' be translated no matter what.  For example, from [[Where the Crap Are We?]], I think that "Senator Pencilface" should be translated as well as possible (something like "Le Sénateur Visagedecrayon" in French, for example).  What do you all think? {{User:Trey56/sig}} 08:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

:Regular names, like "Larry Paloroncini" - no need to translate. This question was faced a long time ago in [http://higbee.cots.net/Holtej/klingon/faq.htm#2.3 another Internet-based project]. Descriptive names like "A Little Girl" should be translated, of course. Most names in H*R (including his own) fall into the vast grey area between. Some like Bubs and Marzipan should be no more than transliterated phonetically, if that. A name like Caleb Rentpayer could be left alone, or the last name could be translated to the local word for "rentpayer" if the result at least resembles a possible name, as in English. Then we get to Strong Bad whose name is both descriptive and simply nominative. But, it started out as descriptive. Comparing it to Mickey Mouse isn't apt: Mickey's name tells us no more than this is a mouse named Mickey, while "Strong Bad" conjures up important expositional imagery. When the meaning of the words in the name contribute to the viewer's interpretation of the character, whether literally, figuratively, ironically, or otherwise, the name probably should be fully translated. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

::I think those are some great guidelines.  Am I right in interpreting, then, that you might translate "Runner" but not "Homestar"? {{User:Trey56/sig}} 09:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

:::This would mean that we'd get [[Wikipedia:Denglish|Denglish]] names such as "Homestar Laeufer", "Strong Schlecht", "Strong Traurig" etc. for the German translation. They do have a certain charme, and they are somewhat more compatible with the English versions. While combinations with English words work well in German &mdash; done right, it's even "cool" &mdash; I'm not sure if that's equally true for all languages. It might even be regarded as ridiculous. I suggest that the translators for each language decide on how they want to do it, based on the suggestions collected here. Then Trey can use names that he doesn't find ridiculous, Elcool can feel good about his Hebrew translations, and I can drive the protectors of the German language crazy with the latest Denglish creations ;-) {{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

:Since you brought up the Mickey Mouse example, Trey: Most Disney names are actually partially translated into German. For example, Mickey is called "Micky Maus", while Scrooge McDuck is called "Dagobert Duck". Interestingly, "Goofy" is still called "Goofy", although most Germans don't know what it means. I still find it irritating when I read about Disney stuff on the web, because all the names are wrong! So yes, from my experience, I would prefer the main character names to not be translated. Here's an interesting link for [http://duckman.pettho.com/characters/scrooge.html Mr. McDuck's international pseudonyms].{{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


::Very interesting! {{User:Trey56/sig}} 09:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, I don't translate proper names, but use a phonetic translation. I always hated how some Hebrew translators translated "lightsaber" to the actuall (two) words for light and saber. They even did it for "Skywalker". I told myself that if I ever started translating anything, I would not repeat that same mistake. So "Strong Bad" in Hebrew is still "Strong Bad" while "Little Girl" is "Yalda Ktana". Other names, like "Micky Mouse" are not translated here. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 17:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:Consider this: "Strong Bad" is more than a name, isn't it? It's the essential exposition of his character! He perceives himself to be strong and bad! So why not, in this one case, use the adjectives "strong" and "bad" as his name? There may be cases where in a particular language it would be awkward, but all languages have accomodations for awkward names, don't they?

:Homestar Runner is another, though let's examine it. Runner is obvious. Homestar is a combination: "home" refers not to a house, but to one's locality, and "star" not to a glactic fireball but to a hero or achiever. These names, if translated in that light, help to expose the character and set up the resulting humor.

:Now let's move to "Da Huuuudge". Can we translate this? Does "huuuuudge" means anything in English? As perhaps the longest-active English speaker involved in this wiki, I assure you it means nothing. I have heard theories about it meaning this of that, but "huuuuudge" means nothing. So what do we do? We transliterate. We achieve the word sound.

:Is the US President Bush known as El Presidenta Arbusto? No, his name is not translated. Neither should any characters, unless the meaning of the name really expresses the essense of the character. Which should be thought of as rare. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 05:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

::I kinda regret translating Homestar's name into Spanish, [[Subtitles_talk:Characters#Homestar_vs._Casaestrella|seeing that he still calls himself (or at least his website) "Homestar Runner" when speaking Spanish.]] On a related note, does anyone know why The Cheat remains The Cheat (sort of) in other languages? --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 07:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Maybe most langauges don't have an exact equivilant for "The Cheat"? Swedish doesn't appear to. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 07:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Well, as a native German speaker, I believe that the translation guidelines for each languages will be different. It's impossible to create universal guidelines. E.L.Cool for example transliterates and translates names into Hebrew, while I would not translate names into German. Even the ones that have a meaning, such as Strong Bad or Homestar Runner. This is because most Germans speak at least a little English, and virtually everybody will know what "bad", "sad", "home" "star" etc. means. It would also look very "uncool" to translate those names. In a quiet moment, I'll change the character names on our character list back into English. As for cases such as "Da Huuuuuudge", I would probably not transliterate, since I'm also not translating the other names. In short: Translating/transliterating names will have to be discussed separately for each language, and native speakers will know best how it's usually done in their language, and how it's best understood by other native speakers.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 07:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'm not native, so I can hardly claim to have the authority Loafing has in German, but I can say I would do the exact same thing as he if I were translating into German. If I were translating into Chinese (which I'm not yet ready to do; maybe someday), it would be a very different story for a number of reasons (for example, Chinese characters can only produce a certain number of sounds, English is not as widespread among Chinese speakers, etc.). The point being that Loafing is right in suggesting that it the names really need to be decided on a language-by-language (maybe even name-by-name) basis. Ideally, we should have native speakers at least review our choices. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 07:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What I'm gonna do for spanish subtitles (Native = Very Yes) is NOT TO CHANGE THE CHARACTER'S NAMES!!!!! I mean, it sounds truly foul to say Casaestrella Corredor. I mean, my skin goes all creepy just to say H*R's name that way. So, no. I wish to verify (And if usefull, change) all the subs in spanish and let the names be UN-literall-translated.

Some examples are: Homestar Runner, He is Homestar Runner, His name is Homestar Runner; The King Of Town, he is the King Of Town, his name is unknown (Though it might be King Of Town), his job is being the King Of Town. AHA! JOBS! If we're speaking of jobs, then translation = literal. So the KOT would be (Not Rey de (la) ciudad) "Rey Del Pueblo". Little Girl is the little girl (Niña Pequeña). Strong Bad is one of the Brothers Strong (Name Unchanged). Coach Z is a coach (I'm in a debate of puting either "Coach Z" or "Entrenador Z"). The Cheat is a Cheat (But his full name has the [[Integral Article|Integral Article]], so, no name-change). And so on...

What I'm saying, is that you can change the name if you're talkin' 'bout jobs, 'k? (Man, I should start calling 1-800-APOSTROHOLIC right now). {{User:Darkangel/sig}}16:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
:I'd like to comment on this issue.  First off, again welcome to the wiki [[User:Darkangel|Darkangel]] and [[User:Tehleet|Tehleet]].  Thanks for helping with the Spanish translations.  I do not have a great deal of time to go over all the translations myself. However I would like to raise a few points.  First, I agree with Darkangel, "Casaestrella Corredor" does sound pretty bad to a spanish speaker (you kinda get used to it), and I do beleive that at least in Spanish, we should keep all the character names in English.  I believe most TV shows also do this (with some exceptions -- I think the Simpsons call Homer "Homero" do they not?) So the decision I guess is generally up to the translator, but since this is a group project consensus must be reached (in writing).  Like I said, keeping the titles in English I think would be a better idea.  For example, the KOT's current name "Rey de la cuidad" sounds more like "King of the City" rather than "King of Town", but "Rey del pueblo" isn't that much better since it can both mean KOT and "King of the people", the latter being the one most people would associate with first.  I had considered that myself last week and for that reason left it alone in the [[Subtitles:Characters|character names]] page.
:Of course, doing so wouldn't just mean changing the aforementioned Character names list, but also the text of every spanish subtitle written.  Which is why I haven't tried undergoing such a feat myself. So I think, like I said before, consensus needs to be raised on this issue, and I beleive that it should be done on a per-language basis.  For some languages it may sound okay to translate names, for others it might not.  Also, per-language editing guidelines might be useful, as some translations were left {{pl|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Subtitles:firsttime/es&curid=30081&diff=419228&oldid=419227&rcid=370539 with}} {{pl|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Subtitles:xmas04/es&curid=30139&diff=419220&oldid=419137&rcid=370531 some}} {{pl|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Subtitles:firsttime/es&diff=prev&oldid=419227 errors}} that can easily be avoided (and are time consuming to identify and fix).  Some language guidelines might help (probably mostly written in English, as ironic as it may sound). It is possible other language translations might benefit from such guidelines as well. General translations can be easy, but proper translations that try their best to convey the right meaning can be a lot of work. I would like to try to reduce that work through collaboration. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 02:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
::Are there any forums in Spanish (or any of our supported languages) about Homestar Runner where we could see how native speakers handle the names? My feeling is that proper names should be translated where it would give a better understanding of the character; using that standard, the King of Town's name ''should'' be translated, since ''Rey del Pueblo'' (or ''de la Ciudad'') gives useful information, and the character is referred to as the king of the town (whether or not it is a self-appointed title and whether he has any actual power are other matters not for discussion here). Furthermore, the Brothers Strong's, Homestar Runner's, Coach Z's, the Poopsmith's, and The Cheat's personalities are all derived from their names. It therefore does make sense to translate them, if a suitable translation can be agreed upon. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 17:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm thinking about detranslating some of the Spanish names back into their official English versions, seeing that most of you seem to prefer them not translated. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 22:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

== Loading... Loading... ==

I've finished the subtitles for sbemails 52-57 and 60, but when I try to test any of them, it says "Loading". It never does load nor does it need to because I'm using the testing setting. I'm using the latest version of the Greasemonkey script. &mdash;{{User:Mibluvr13/sig}} 17:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:I seem to have this same problem all the time... (namely with [[virus]]'s transcript at the moment) - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 03:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::Check to see if your XML is properly formed. Are all tags closed? Save the entire XML code (from the doctype to the closing root tag) as an XML file and open with a modern browser, it should either display the XML or point out an error. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::If there's an error in the XML file, it should tell you about it (if you're using the test area in the GM script). If it sits on "Loading" forever, it's either having trouble loading the [[Subtitles:Characters|Characters]] page, or there's a bug in the script. Go Tools&rarr;JavaScript Console, clear it and reload the H*R page. If anything appears in the console (other than "junk after document element" and a piece of rando.xml, which I know about) tell me about it - it means there's probably a bug in the script. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 05:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

== Quotes ==

[http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Subtitles:sbemail155/en&curid=27300&diff=362778&oldid=362766 What's wrong with using quotes when SB is reading an email?] --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:Nothing, as far as I know. It is a quote. What's the consensus on this as far as a standard? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) ADD: Joshua reverted based on admin edit. First, I disagree. While It's Dot com is a cool guy, he's just a regular user outside of enforcing the consensus of the wiki. He erred, I believe, in reverting those quotes. Big deal. Let's decide now.
::It is better to use quotes, as this clearly shows that SB is reading an email instead of commenting on it. We should definitely use them.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:Normally I'd be fine with it, but on many occassions Strong Bad does not directly read the email as it's written. Sometimes he adds things in the email ([[isp|not even close]]), and sometimes he reads things differently than they're meant ([[senior prom|walrus association]]). Consistancy is key, and I don't think we should put quotes around them when Strong Bad doesn't directly quote them all the time. - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 03:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::But the viewer needs know that SB reading an email, indirectly or not. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 03:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I would suppose the obvious counterargument is that they can tell because they see the email on the screen. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Why not just stick a "{reading}" sound effect at the beginning of it? --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]]
:::::Yes, I think (reading) is the best and most helpful solution. We should also use it if SB reads it the wrong way (as usual), because it describes best what he does. The mockery then becomes obvious if the reader compares it with the email from the Flash file.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 04:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Number A, (reading) isn't a sound effect. :P Therefore I don't think it's very nessecary to be listed upon what is effectively written sound. I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that he's reading an email, as Qermaq pointed out. The "Dear Strong Bad" and name closing on most emails should give a clue to anyone who couldn't figure it out otherwise. Also, if we put (reading) down, it'd only make sense to put (writing) down as well. It'd get pretty messy. - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 04:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::We don't just note sound effects. We also use ''(angrily)'' or ''(in a bad imitation of Marzipan)'' etc. I think it makes sense to note that SB is using his reading voice. He usually talks in a normal tone while writing his reply, so we don't need to use (writing). On the other hand, you are right about the danger of clutter, and these explicit mentions of moods or tones should be used only when it is important for the mood or understanding of the cartoon.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Clarification: Of course these ''modifiers'' should not be noted as <sfx> elements, but included in the actual lines.

== Ordering in Namespace Listing ==

What is the basis for the confused ordering in [[Special:Allpages/Subtitles:!]]? Should we also provide a category which would allow for more ordered ... ordering? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:Looks like plain ol' alphabetics to me. Reads in rows, starting with numbers, then capitals, then lowercase. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]]
::Can it be more obtuse, though? We have to read across the rows, not down the columns as one woul expect. And even if that were not an issue, it's going to be a rather complicated mess. Indexing will be needed. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 04:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::It could start at the bottom, or go right-to-left... Things are never so complicated that they can't be made worse. =3 --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]]
::::If you want a nicer list than that, simply use [[:Category:Subtitles]]. I also think that there is no real need to invest much time in creating an actually readable list of subtitles. A the rate that we're currently going, most cartoons will be subtitled soon, and eventually, these lists will only used by behind-the-scenes subber gnomes. We should simply link from each article directly to the relevant subtitels in the section ''See Also''. In fact, we should start doing this right now.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

== Frame count ==

Is there any way to see the frame count BESIDES using philp's Greasemonkey script or a flash decompiler? Portable Firefox isn't working for me...--[[User:Color Printer|Color]] [[User talk:Color Printer|Printer]] 17:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

:I guess you could do a Google search for "flash seek bar"... ¤ {{User:The Mu/sig}} 17:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::My normal seek bar doesn't count frames... - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 18:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::Exactly, and I can't find another that shows it. --[[User:Color Printer|Color]] [[User talk:Color Printer|Printer]] 18:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:::There's a JavaScript property for that actually, methinks. Ask Phlip about it. ¤ {{User:The Mu/sig}} 18:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

== 100! ==

We have '''one hundred''' English subtitles scripts! <sub>Well, O.K., some are still in progress as I write this, and then there are others, such as [[Subtitles:404error/en]], but still.</sub> Only ten days ago, we posted a little question if anybody would be interested in this. Wow, you guys and girls are fast! And for the records: we also have 1 Spanish, 3 French, 10 Hebrew, and 14 German subtitles scripts. You people rock! And there is still a long way to go to subtitle every cartoon, so "Rock, Rock On!" {{User:Loafing/sig}} 11:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:For a <small>currently</small> less then complete "progress report", check out [[User:Super Sam/Subtitles|this thingy]]. - {{User:Super_Sam/sig}} 13:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::Why don't we move that thingy to [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List]]. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 16:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Good idea.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

== Cleanup Templates ==

It seems many subtitle pages are being created with a cleanup template from the get-go. According to [[:Category:Articles needing cleanup]], "After adding this template to the beginning of the article, add a clear comment on the corresponding talk page indicating what you think should be done." But invariably, there are no comments whatsoever on the Talk page. This makes it unclear to anyone else what precisely needs the cleanup. It could be grammar, it could be framecounts, it could be a number of things, and it's a little unhelpful to expect someone to comb through it later to see what's needing cleanup. Can we all agree to take this extra step when using the template? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 14:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, but we don't need them on the subtitles page. I mean if it's just grammar, then they can fix it, right?--{{User:H*bad/sig}} 14:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::Well, if it just a grammatical error, then the person who noticed it clearly has some fluency in the language. It's possible, I suppose, that someone might know it's wrong but not know how to fix it. If a person is fluent enough to fix it, the template is misused in that case. Then again, it's possible the template's misused in the first example - normally we use the cleanup template on articles which are a pretty big mess. In these cases, the language might be poorly translated, but it's likely at least intelligeable to a speaker of that language even if it's laughable. So perhaps this is an inappropriate use of the template; but if it is an appropriate usage, then it's still important to post on the Talk as to why you've placed it there. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 15:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

==Problematic==
I encountered a problem while watching the english-subtitled [[different town]].  Despite the fact that their character names were all labeled correctly, subtitles for Homestar, Strong Mad, Strong Sad, and Coach Z all appeared white, as though they were labeled as "other". {{User:Ten Ten/sig}} 23:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
:This probably means that you have switched the colours off. In the settings of the All-In-One Greasemonkey script, there is an option "use colours" at the bottom. You need to check that. The name labels will disappear, and the colours will return.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

== Subtitle Template ==

I think a template should be made that tells if a toon/game/etc. has subtitles, and tells which languages it is availiable in. - {{User:Super Sonic X/Sig}} 23:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:We're [[1 step ahead]] of you. Add <nowiki>{{subtitlesLinks|filename}}</nowiki> at the bottom of an article, and a list of available subtitles appears on the left hand menu column. Check the 1 step ahead article to see how it works.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 23:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

== Bravo ==

I've been third-party to this since it started, but I've been watching a few toons, and I really like what I see. As this project matures, I gotta say that this is definitely worthy of a Main Page service announcement and more to get the word out. Keep on building! &mdash;[[User:BazookaJoe|BazookaJoe]] 00:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC) (PS: Can somebody add a sfx line to [[Subtitles:sickday/en]] for SB's prolonged groan before calling for The Paper? I thought it needed it, but I'm too lazy to do this myself. Thanks.)


==Volunteer?==
I think we should set up some method of volunteering to do certain subtitles, because too often have I begun work on a subtitle, only to realize that it's already finished by someone else!  If we set up some kind of volunteer board/thingy, then everyone would know what subtitles are in-the-making, which ones are done, and which ones need to be finished.  If we do get it up, I volunteer for [[rock opera]]. {{User:Ten Ten/sig}} 23:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
:So like a pegboard? And we put our name in saying we got dibs on the toon? This would have the problem of being abused, you see. Consider the "in progress" template - people put it on and forget to take it off when they're done, while others freely edit even though it's there. I mean, so long as no one's paying attention to policy to begin with, what's the use of MORE red tape no one's going to pay attention to? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 00:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
:'''(Edit Conflict)''' The problem with those volunteer boards is that people often don't stick to their promises and block a task for everybody else. The way we've done it so far, is the same it's being done everywhere else on the wiki: If you start working on a subtitle script, you add the <nowiki>{{inprogress}}</nowiki> template at the top, and when you finish, you remove the template. That way, we make sure, that only one person is subtitling the same toon at a time. Please note that you should only have that template on the page while you are actually working on it. If you take a longer break or go to bed, you should remove it.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

== 200! ==

Wheee! We've reached 200 English subtitles scripts :-) 211 even! If I have counted correctly, there are 125 toons left to be subtitled, 27 of which are sbemails. We also have got 44 French scripts now. Way to go! You girls and guys rock! Keep it coming :-D{{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

== Broke? ==

For some reason I can't view the subtitles when they're supposedly on. What's wrong? --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 01:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
:Works for me. Did you clear your cache? Which toon did you try to watch? What's the last error messages on the Javscript Console (in Ffx's Tools menu) after it fails?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 01:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
::I also can't see the subtitle button. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 01:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
::: No problems here. --[[User:68.201.124.72|68.201.124.72]] 01:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
::::Try the following: 1) Tools - Manage User Scripts - Uninstall Homestar All-In-One. 2) Restart Firefox. 3) Go to [[User:Phlip/Greasemonkey]] and reinstall the script. 4) Again, restart Firefox. 5) Check the Preferences. Be sure mission-critical things are checked, like "show seek bar", "shpw subtitles" etc. are checked. The only things I have unchecked are the full-screen option, upside-down, plain HTML, and test subtitles. If all that fails, leave a note on Phlip's Talk, he's sure to want to be aware of it. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::Yes, but don't forget to include the answers to my questions, or he's not going to be able to help you.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 04:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
::::::To be more specific, go Tools&rarr;Javascript Console, and hit Clear. Then load up a page on Homestar Runner. If any error messages appear in the console, right-click&rarr;copy and paste them here. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 05:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the error message I got:
<pre>Error: Node was not found
Source File: 
Line: 387
Source Code:
387</pre>--[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 15:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

== Anyone else having a problem? ==

I can't get the subtitles to work again.  Anybody else having the same problem?  It says loading and then doesn't load them.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 07:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
::I thought the characters page was messed up so I tried to fix it, if it is then I couldn't figure out what was wrong or maybe this is just me.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 07:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the wiki went down briefly or something. It took a while to load for me, anyway. [[User:Shwoo|Shwoo]] 08:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
::Yeah, it works now.  Oh well.  I think it did need </speaker> in there that was missing.  Don't know if that would make the entire thing go down.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 08:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, if the characters page is broken &mdash; for example because of a missing closing tag &mdash; then the subtitles won't display.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 08:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

== Question about the translations ==

I'm not sure why I'm asking this since I don't speak another language well enough to translate the subtitles, but shouldn't written things be subtitled as well? Written things that aren't spoken, I mean. Because I noticed that the Spanish subtitles for The Cheat's character just say "The Cheat noises" in Spanish, and I don't think that's hugely informative.{{User:Shwoo/sig}} 03:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
:Good point. The Cheat's character page is a special case...{{User:Loafing/sig}} 22:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

== XML feed tech question/proposal ==

From a content editors point of view, it would be convienent to omit the 'end' attribute on 'line' and allow such omission to indicate 'end = next.start'.

Looking at the userscript, it actually doesn't seem to complicate things too much.  I think it can be taken care of in the transcriptLoaded() callback, while iterating over each line element, there is this existing code:

<pre>
// ignore lines with missing start/end values
// so you can add all the lines and not worry about timing them until later
if (!lines[i].getAttribute("start") || !lines[i].getAttribute("end"))
	continue;
line.start = parseInt(lines[i].getAttribute("start"), 10);
line.end = parseInt(lines[i].getAttribute("end"), 10);
</pre>

I think the 'end' attribute can be optional  &mdash; ''if and only if'' the very next line element has a satisfactory 'start' attribute &mdash; with something like:

<pre>
// ignore lines with missing start/end values
// so you can add all the lines and not worry about timing them until later
// allow undefined end values to look ahead to next siblings start value,
// if it exists
if (!lines[i].getAttribute("start"))
	continue;
line.start = parseInt(lines[i].getAttribute("start"), 10);
if (!lines[i].getAttribute("end"))
	if (i+1 < lines.length)
                if (!lines[i+1].getAttribute("start"))
		        continue;
                else
		        line.end = parseInt(lines[i+1].getAttribute("start"), 10);
	else
                continue;
else
	line.end = parseInt(lines[i].getAttribute("end"), 10);
</pre>

End result, 'line.end' is sure to be defined (either explicitly as it is now, or inferred from the 'start' of the next line element), or the iteration continues (same as it did before).

I haven't tried this out yet (I will tomorrow).  Wanted to throw the idea out while it was fresh in my mind though.
{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 10:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

:Dropping the end attribute where possible is a good idea. This should work especially well with Strong Bad's sbemail monologues. And it would force me to finally update the external viewer (which has been displaying subtitles differently from the official version for months now ;-). I'm not too sure about the possibility of having lines without a start attribute, though. We will at least have to display a warning that there are errors in the subtitles - which is basically what we do now. What do you think, Phlip?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 11:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

::Oh, I'm not suggesting no start attribute, I think that's a must.  But yeah, for the end attr, in the limited editing I've done I typically want to leave the subtitle up until the next one, giving people ample reading time... unless there is a very long silence (not often), or if the silence is a notable part of the composition/comedic effect (important sometimes).

::Note that in my changes above - everything happens ''before'' any of the error detection is done.

::Aside: The above change (presuming it works), could even allow for end attributes along the lines of "-2" (e.g. "end" 2 frames before the next "start").  I've not really wanted that, but it could be handy for tweaking timings.  Anyway, one step at a time =) {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 11:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems to work ok hacked together for testing.  {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 01:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

== 300! ==

We're getting there! With over 300(!!) English subtitles scripts, we have so far subtitled 92% of all toons that can be subtitled. The gaps in the [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List|list]] are closing, and only the [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List#Marzipan.27s_Answering_Machine|MAM]] toons seem to go slow. If we keep up the pace (Alas, Shwoo went back to school.), we should finish all toons before Decemberween. Good jorb, everybody!{{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

:I'm going through MAM's and stubbing them.  I was going to complete mam2, but it actually seems a lot easier to operate in "stub" mode and just make the transcripts XML'd! in one go, and then go back and break up the lines with timings in a second pass.  Less switching mental gears.
:{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 11:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

:Actually, I stopped because exams are coming up. If there's any more subtitles left to do next week after exams finish, I'll do some more then. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 05:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

::Double-yay! :-){{User:Loafing/sig}} 05:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

== External Viewer ==

I have finally updated the external viewer so that it can handle the "new" subtitles format (the one we've been working with for the last few months). Could you folks please try it out and see if you can spot any bugs? It would also be good to know which browsers work and which don't. Post your results here, and I'll see if I can fix those bugs ;-){{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:Hey Loafing. I was checking out the updated external viewer, and the [http://hstarsubs.awardspace.com/subtitles.html?sbemail/en sbemail menu] doesn't load at all. :/ - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 14:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
::Hey The Joe, the transcript element in the subtitles did not have a file attribute. I fixed it.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:I could not make it work with Internet Explorer 7 Beta 3. Would be great if someone with an actual release version could try it out.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::It won't work with Mozilla Firefox 1.0.7. <s>{{User:Y2K/sig}} 06:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)</s> {{unsigned|138.130.37.153|06:16, 14 February 2007}}
:::Hmm, is there a reason why you have such an old version?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 06:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I was using my dad's computer. Once he downloaded Firefox, he never upgraded. --[[User:144.136.124.15|144.136.124.15]] 05:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

None of them seem to load in SeaMonkey. If it matters, I'm using the 1.5 nightlies in Debian. I'll reboot into Windows (where I've got the latest release installed &mdash; random web pages would crash the Linux release hard for me) and report back on working state  in a bit. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 07:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
:That's a no-go on SeaMonkey 1.1.1 on Win XP Pro. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 07:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
::I guess it's for the same reason it's [[HRWiki_talk:Subtitles#doc.documentElement_has_no_properties|broken for Firefox 2]]. :-/ Hopefully, SeaMonkey will be fixed when I fix Ffx2. Whenever that will be.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 07:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Now if only there was a way to install Greasemonkey in SeaMonkey. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 06:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::::So what's the status on all the viewers? Are they all broken? Partially broken? I am curious to know, currently, what works with what? I think it would be useful to have some sort of informal survey as to what works with what. A table similar to:

{| class="TheStickBox" 
! Operating System / Browser !! Greasemonkey !! Loafing's Viewer
|- 
| Firefox 1.5 || Should work || Flawlessly
|-
| Firefox 2.0 || Notta chance! || You'd like it if it did, wouldn't you?
|-
| Safari || Nope, sorry, try again || Perhaps
|-
| IE 6/7 ||  || 
|-
| Seamonkey in Linux || ||
|-
| Seamonkey in Windows || ||
|}

::::Something like that. Anyway, the reason I bring it up is twofold: first it seems like both methods are broken and at least one of these methods should be up and running soon, and second I've noticed that we're trying to encourage people to use the GS script more than Loafing's Viewer.  However, as I understanding, the viewer would only work with Firefox (and maybe mozilla?) thus limiting the audience that can view thes subtitles. I would prefer if we encouraged the platform-independent script to be used instead. I am sorry I can't help more with the technical aspects of getting either to work. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 13:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Good idea, I like the survey. I'm curious about that myself ;-) We should wait another day or two, though. I'm currently re-writing the external viewer from scratch to make it compatible with more versions of more browsers. As for the question which viewer we should push, the Greasemonkey script wins hands-down. The external viewer is something extra that I'm keeping to make the subtitles more accessible, but it has several serious drawbacks. The main one being it relying on an external web server. One that will no longer be free once I release the new version of the external viewer. And more precisely one that ''I'' will pay for. Whole bunch of other reasons, but that's a big one right there.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 13:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Waiting a few days sounds good.  (Out of curiosity, I don't know if you [[HRWiki_talk:Subtitles#RTL_Necessary.3F|noticed]] a request I'd made.  Would that change be implemented into the viewer? As for relying on another {{pl|l=http://hstarsubs.awardspace.com/subtitles.html?commandos3/en server}}: I assume that your script still loads the original Flash file from HR.com, and all that you really host is the single web page with the JS itself (and no dynamic content).  Since this has become a significant wiki project, wouldn't there be a way where your script could be hosted on the wiki (or on {{pl|l=http://www.fellowsites.org/ fellowsites}} even). I don't think the script would be a big resource hog in any way.  (Open question: Does and/or should this wiki advertise fellowsites anywhere?) --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 16:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::It's a dynamic php script. And I'm currently not sure if the browser can load the Flash file from homestarrunner.com. The subtitles script may need to serve those as well to get around browser security restrictions. I'll know more after I've finished re-writing the viewer.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

== Syncronisation ==

Could somebody else please look at the subtitles for [[The King of Town DVD Commentary]] and [[In Search of the Yello Dello Commentary]]? About half of the audio of both isn't synced to the video, and I didn't realise it would look different on different computers until just now. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 10:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:They are fine for me. What seems to happen with these two is that each line (or each couple of lines) they say in the commentary is triggered at a set frame &mdash; which is the same for everybody on each computer. The last frame of each line will be different, but not by much, since the unsynched soundbytes are relatively short. So it seems you don't have to worry about those two, they are just fine :-) (yay!){{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

== Is the Progress Count Off? ==

Before I added the listing for [[what I want]], the total count of toons on the progress meter was 348.  However, based on the [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List|list]] of toons, I count 345 &mdash; 346 now that I added the newest sbemail.  (I'm not counting things that could be subtitled but have no sound &mdash; there are six of those).  I count 346 toons currently on the list, 22 of which do not exist yet, and   there are none tagged <em>stub</em> at the moment.  So anyway... what am I missing? (I didn't change the progress meter at all, since my count doesn't jive with what's already there.) {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 03:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:I might have miscounted the toons. Wouldn't be the first time. I'll recount when I'm back later tonight. Feel free to fix the meter whenever you spot errors.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::Actually... instead of counting what's on the [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List|list]], I just looked at the count of existing english subtitles (based on the category page which for some reason I can't link to) &mdash; it's 327.  That would make the total 349 (based on 22 on the list with non-existant pages).  Does that mean there are 3 existing subtitle pages that do not appear on that [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List|list]]? {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 03:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yep. [[Subtitles:boredgames/en]], [[Subtitles:sbemail/en]] and [[Subtitles:tennis/en]] are (or, at least, were) all missing from the big list. Incidentally, you can link to a category by: <code>&#91;[:Category:English Subtitles]]</code>, which comes out like [[:Category:English Subtitles|this]]. The extra colon tells MW not to handle the link specially (you can do the same thing to [[:Image:wiki.png|link to an image]] rather than including it in the page). {{User:Phlip/sig}} 04:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::You're too fast for me.  I had just now figured out which 3 were missing and was about to fix it.  Well done. {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 04:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== 100% ==

All the subtitles have been done! This calls for a celebration. [http://www.hrwiki.org/images/0/0c/Suudsu.PNG Suudsu, anyone?] {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 10:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:Yay! We're at 100%. That's just amazing :-D Suudsus are on me! Good jorb, everybloody! Big kudos to the sub regulars like Mibluvr13, Shwoo, Bleedy, Bryanc etc. (sorry if I forgot your name, it's a huge project!) . I guess after our lavish party, we should think about cleaning up the subs and doing some quality control. But for now, I'll just run around with a huge smile on my face :-D (and now I'll do a little dance){{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::Now let's get this freakin' party started! With a little match, and a little fire... I'm on a subtitle high. Is that even healthy? {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 10:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Yay! As someone who saw it grow from nothing (way back when it wasn't even on the Greasmonkey, Loafing hosted is all by himself and the only toon was Cheatar in English and German...) to this wiki-wide project. Wow! Well, I guess it's time to work on my Hebrew translating skills :) {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 15:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== To Preeeeoow or not to Preeeeoow? ==

I've noticed that some subtitles have The Paper's sound effect subtitled, and some don't. I think one should be picked for consistancy. I vote for no sound effect. The Paper doesn't even sound like that. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 11:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

:"[[Preeeeow]]" is how TBC describe the sound, on several occasions.

:I think that it should be included. It is a hallmark of the sbemails and sometimes jokes are made based on it. {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 16:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::Every important sound effect should be included, and the paper's coming down is definitely important. You have to assume that the person using the subtitles has no sound at all. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 18:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::I agree.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 18:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I've argued this before. As It's dot com said, you have to assume the viewer has no ability to hear the audio. This does not mean we include every sound heard in the toon in the subtitles, however. Sound effects essential to the narrative should be included. Sound effects which are not needed to understand the toon should not be included. The sound of The Paper offers no particular information to the reader. Therefore I argue no sound effect. In addition, even if one felt the sound effect was an essential part of the toon, it is accompanied by a visual every time, and as such the sound effect becomes even more unnecessary as the visual part of The Paper serves the same function as the sound. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 00:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree as well :-/{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
There are other sound-effects that are even more relevant to some storylines, and we should discuss them here as well. [[The Geddup Noise]] and the Chairscoot, for example. I don't believe that it's helpful to include The Geddup Noise in every subtitles script except maybe one or two. The sfx would clutter. Including "preeeow!" is usually easier because nothing else happens when the paper comes down. However, I believe that we should have a common standard for those sound effects. In the end, it will be more helpful to only include them in an email when they are relevant for the story. While this might be perceived as an inconsistency across the subtitles by some viewers, it will keep the subtitles generally clean and easier to read.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
:I disagree. So long as actual dialogue doesn't interfere, the geddup noise and the paper noise are important to be included every time they occur (I feel more strongly about the paper). There is usually no other noise surrounding them anyway. If we include them somethetimes but not other times, then I think it would be reasonable for someone who can't hear the toon to conclude that there is silence when it isn't noted, and giving them that impression is inaccurate and unfair. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
::If someone cannot hear the toon, then the absence of a sfx in the subtitles might very well leave the impression that there is no sound. Is it a mistaken impression? Well, of course. I ask, though, that we consider whether it is relevant. Although these subtitles are not solely for the hearing impaired, let's ask whether a hearing-impaired person is misled substantially by its exclusion. I would suggest that its inclusion is not quite "unfair", as the sfx of The Paper adds nothing of substance to the plot. Additionally, its absence allows the line preceding to remain onscreen longer, which is at times essential for readability. Finally, hearing-impaired people certainly are aware that some things make sounds that they not only cannot perceive but do not really need to perceive. If a hearing-impaired person learned from a friend that The Paper makes this weird sound that isn't noted in the transcript, my assumption would be that they would simply shrug and say, "That's interesting." I doubt they would feel cheated that we failed to spell out the onomatapoea of a sound they cannot hear anyway. In summary, there are no compelling reasons I can see to suggest we need to include it, and at least a few compelling reasons not to. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 22:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:::How then, we were to not include The Paper's noise, would you explain to a deaf person the "preeeeow" in [[part-time job]] and the "PREEEOW!!" in [[lady fan]]?  I found those jokes funny because I've heard the noise so many times.  This is a very compelling reason to include these types of sound in every instance.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 04:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
::::To clarify, I never said anything about anyone being hearing-impaired. I said someone who can't hear the toon, which includes anyone who has the sound off for whatever reason. When I watch a toon that's been muted, it is a palpable omission if certain sound effects are left out, including the paper. In short, in the back of my mind part of me is wondering if it really was silent, even if I consciously know that the paper must have made a sound because it always does. It seems empty. For the same reason, we subtitle the spoken parts of the email text themselves, even though it would be possible to conclude simply from the fact that the text is on the screen that Strong Bad is probably reading it. The subtitles let me know for sure. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 05:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::So let me ask: if left to you, what would be the way we would decide which sfx were subtitled and which were not? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 08:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

== External Viewer &mdash; New Version ==
I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.1 and the subtitles appear, but the Play/Pause buttons etc., don't. Or have you just removed those buttons? --<nowiki>{{User:Y2K/sig}}</nowiki> (forgetting to log in)  {{unsigned|86.212.35.218|07:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)}}

:I'm running the same Firefox version and everything works fine, including pause. (I never had a button marked "play" but perhaps you were speaking generically.) I suggest uninstalling and reinstalling the script. See if that solves the issue. Further questions on it should probably go to the [[User talk:Phlip/Greasemonkey|script's talk page]]. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
:That's perfectly fine, the external viewer does no longer have controls for the Flash file. They're gone for several reasons, and people who want nice controls and a seekbar should use the greasemonkey script that Qermaq pointed out :-){{User:Loafing/sig}} 09:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
::You see, I was thinking you were referring to the Greasemonkey script, not the external viewer which I doubted anyone using Firefox would even bother with. As Loafing points out, any user who uses Firefox should definitely be running the Greasemonkey script. Users of other browsers should seriously consider installing Firefox even if it's solely for the purpose of viewing H*R toons with the Greasemonkey script. (I have at least 5 browsers installed, and used to have more.) {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

== Answering Machine Ver. 5 ain't done yet! ==

How come nobody's filling in the frame numbers for the 5th version of Marzipan's Answering Machine? Just one more and the subtitle project will finally be complete! Stop slackin' and get it over with already. There's nothing to it, really. (10 December 2006)
:It's hard, it takes a long time... Actually, I was just logging on to do that now. Look at me, I'm working on Christmas Day! Everybody buy me stuff! Yeah, I'm joking. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 05:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
::You go, Shwoo! And as a reply to the anonny: If there's nothing to it, then do it yourself. The subtitles crew has done an amazing job, and nobody's in the position to call them lazy &mdash; especially an anonny who probably hasn't done any.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

== Adding Subtitles section and other Issues ==
I was going to play around with adding subtitle links to other sections after not finding any but it turns out that you already have a template meant for that, but it doesn't seem to be working!? [[Decemberween_Sweet_Cuppin%27_Cakes#External_Links|This section]] and apparently [http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template%3AsubtitlesLinks other sections] too, but when I click on these pages the template does not even appear on the source wikicode. Anyway I'll look into that and see if the [[Template:subtitlesLinks|template]] can be fixed.  

In another matter, I just finished [[Subtitles:dween cakes/es|fixing]] a Spanish translation made for the same aforementioned toon.  The subtitles guidelines clearly state that native speakers (or near-native) should be the ones working on the translations, and we should find a way to stress that a little more. However, I really do appreciate having to make minor changes here and these instead of translating from scratch.  To that end I want to create a [[:Category:Notice_Templates|notice]] for the subtitles that would tag a translation as "incomplete" or in need of verification.  (I'll do that shortly.) My only concern is that the inclusion of the template would not allow the subtitling software read it (which I doubt since they all already have a [[Template:subtitles|template]] attached to them). --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

'''Update:''' I have created the [[:Category:Subtitles in Need of Verification|following category]] along with the appropriate templates for tagging translations.  The category description itself describes what they are for: there needs to be a way to identify which translations are accurate and which still need a little work.  Translators that are not fluent in the translated language ''must'' place this template on the translation.  That way little things (such as idioms) can be translated correctly by a native speaker.  There should be a section in the main page that alludes to this.  I guess I should add that shortly.  To that end, I plan on adding the template to [[HRWiki:Subtitles/List|all French and Spanish translations]] later in the day, so that, as they are verified, the template is removed from these and "marked off". I might also tag the German translations but I'm guessing E.L.Cool did the Hebrew ones and I know he is a native Hebrew speaker. That's all for now.  Please tell me what you think! --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 19:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

:Good work with the template! No need to tag the German translations, they were done or proofread by native speakers. About the {{t|subtitlesLinks}} confusion: The links to the subtitles aren't displayed at the bottom of the page, but on the left hand menu column of each article, under the "external links" box. And you will often not find {{t|subtitlesLinks}} included directly in an article. For example, it's included in {{t|sbenav}} etc. It's working just fine, no need to fix it ;-){{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
::Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Thanks for the reply!  I was wondering what was going on! The code looked right. But I couldn't find the links anywhere, and i knew those had to be interwiki links but I could see the effect anywhere on the page! Like I [http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=HRWiki:Sandbox&diff=398144&oldid=398143 said] in the sandbox, the links are rather inconspicuous if you don't know what you're looking for.  It would be nice if there was some way to offer them more prominence or at least mention somehow their existence.  Sneaky on the {{t|sbenav}} inclusion ;) I'm out of practice! And thank you on the template stuff, now i just gotta tag all spanish and french stuff. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 20:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Most (if not all) of the French subtitles were done or proofread by [[User:Meuhcoin|Meuhcoin]], who is French, just so you know. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''Edit conflict x2''' Okay I'm done for now.  I added the template to all spanish translations (except the first one I proofread). I also noticed that almost all french Translations were created or proofread by [[User:Meuhcoin]]. It looks very much like he's a native French Speaker, and so I just made sure he had made edits to every single French Translation page out there (which he {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Meuhcoin&namespace=102 did}}).  Eventually I will go through the Spanish translations. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 21:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

:Oooh! That's great. Does that mean I can put the Swedish subtitles I translated up on the wiki? My Swedish isn't very good, but it was fun to translate. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 01:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
::I wouldn't think so, because you just said yourself that your Swedish isn't very good. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 01:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

::One of the big differences between the subtitles and everything else on the wiki is that the people who actually use them will not see {{t|stub}}, {{t|cleanup}}, {{t|fixtranslation}} or other templates. Potentially bad translations or messy subtitles scripts should therefore be avoided.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 01:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Oh, okay then. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 01:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

== Dutch (NL) subtitles ==

Would you please add NL to [[Subtitles:Languages]]? --[[User:Pdedecker|Pdedecker]] 11:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
:I just saw that NL has been added, thanks! --[[User:Pdedecker|Pdedecker]] 18:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
::Oh yes, I forgot to post in this thread. You're welcome! Cheers! &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 03:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

== Uhh... ==

The External Viewer used to work a few days ago, but now it doesn't load anything. I haven't done anything to my computer...help! --[[User:Color Printer|Color]] [[User talk:Color Printer|Printer]] 12:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Same here. [[User:76.184.188.124|76.184.188.124]] 16:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

This happens to me too! GRRRR! I WANT FIREFOX INSTALLED HERE!!! --{{User:Darkangel/sig}} 21:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

== Translation Guidelines ==

<blockquote>Always start from the English subtitles. This saves a lot of time and work, because then, the frame numbers only have to be found once. Use the same <code>start</code> and <code>end</code> values for all languages.</blockquote>

Do we want to phrase it this way? I can imagine a scenario where this would lead to a poorer subtitling. First, if the English is not subtitled well, we're basically asking the translator to not improve it, which is, in a word, stupid. Second, there will be times when for the timing of a joke to work right, or for the reader to have sufficient time to read the subtitle, the <code>start</code> or <code>end</code> values may need to vary. Trouble is, I'm not sure how to word it. Thoughts welcome. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 22:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:I'm not sure how to respond to question. I can give you a hazy answer, at best.  Generally speaking, it is MUCH easier for a translator to take the original subtitles XML page and simply reword the idea being expressed by the text.  As least for most romance languages word placement (in grammar) is similar enough that the right timing for an english translation will correlate with the right timing for an adequate translation. That is, when something is said in the english subtitles, the same thing should be said in the <insert favorite foreign language here> translation.  Most english subtitles also go by transcript (I beleive) so if the English transcript is well-written, a skilled translator should not have much trouble conveying the same idea. What's left would be improper timing in the original english subtitle.  If that is the case, those subtitles would need to be re-timed (or words re-split).  Any re-timings can be fixed in other translations, while re-splits can be notified with a {{tl|fixtranslation}} tag, and a note in each translation's discussion.  Again, as for timings/splits having to be different across translations I consider that to be an unlikely occurrence, and not necessarily a serious impact in translation quality. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 20:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:I have also added a note suggesting that the translated toon be watched in order to make sure that the translation went ok.  I figure if any inconsistencies arise they can be caught there and the translator can choose to change index times if need be. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 04:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

== RTL Necessary? ==
I guess this is more of a viewer implementation issue, but, according to the text:
<blockquote>*If your language is written from the right to the left, put <code>dir="rtl"</code> in the opening <code><transcript></code> tag.</blockquote>
Isn't the RTL property a language-dependent property?  If so, shouldn't that be permanently set in the [[Subtitles:Languages]] file?  That way: 
*Translators that need RTL don't need to "remember to add it" every time a new toon is translated.
*Anyone feeling funny won't put "RTL" in some english toons.
I'm also sure no language has text that is RTL and non-RTL.  The only time that I'd see RTL be changed is if non-RTL text is inlined with a translation (in a different language) of RTL text (or vice versa), something H*R I doubt will ever see. This would mean a per-line optional RTL field for the viewer.  Anyway. I just wanted to put that suggestion up if it's feasible, that way the line I quoted can also be removed. (That would save E.L. Cool some trouble too ;) ) --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 20:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

::I think you're right, it's a per-language property. And it is actually possible to choose an alternate direction within a subtitles script using a &lt;span&gt; tag. I'm not sure if it's worth the hassle of changing the code, though ;-) Let's see what Phlip says.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 22:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I was suggesting that the code handle both ways: the old and new, in order to avoid incompatibilities with existing transcripts, whereas allowing us to make newer sleeker ones! :) --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 23:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

== doc.documentElement has no properties ==

That's what it says when I try to access the subtitles via the external viewer under the Error Console. [[User:76.184.199.4|76.184.199.4]] 23:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Which browser are you using? And which subtitles are you trying to see?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 23:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

::Firefox, and all of them. [[User:76.184.199.4|76.184.199.4]] 12:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Blast! You're right, it's broken :-/ It's past bed time for me, so it'll have to wait for now. Thanks for letting me know. In the meantime, you could go ahead and install the [[User:Phlip/Greasemonkey|Greasemonkey script]] for your browser. It displays subtitles flawlessly and has lots of other cool features (like a seek bar and a fullscreen mode).{{User:Loafing/sig}} 12:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

== More Visible? ==

Since the purported purpose of this project (nice alliteration) is to help those with difficulty understanding the toons, perhaps it would be better to make them more visible on the pages of individual toons, or perhaps put a link to subtitles on the main page of the wiki. I accidentally stumbled up subtitles the other day while going through the recent changes, and if I, an avid wiki user, didn't see them except by accident, they may be missing their intended audience. Just a suggestion, take it with as big a grain of salt as you need.{{User:Bassbone/sig}} 22:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
:I think that putting a link on the main page is an excellent idea. Where should it go? &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 02:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::Might I suggest a link under the "Browse the Knowledge Base" section, in the Miscellany subsection (if space allows)? Perhaps the title "Subtitled Toons" might be appropriate as well. Though a more prominent place might be more advisable. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 02:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

::I think this a great idea too. After looking through the various groupings of links on the main page, I didn't think it fit very well into any of the existing categories. So, maybe something separate, like including this somewhere on the main page:

:::''Want to enjoy Homestar Runner without sound? Check out our [[HRWiki:Subtitles|Subtitles project]].''

::That can probably be reworded better, though. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 02:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

:::I was thinking about the same section as Stux. And if we're '''really bold''', we could add subtitles links to new toons in the whatsnew section... We could also announce the subtitles project on the main page like Trey suggested for a few weeks maybe? '''Important:''' let me fix the external viewer before we make it more public.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Do you mean alongside the "watch" link, adding a "watch with subtitles" link?  If so, I was thinking of suggesting the same thing but refrained.  The external viewer definitely needs to have the improvements that have been made to the userscript pulled over before we point people to it.{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 03:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't think it's necessary to put a link to each individual subtitles page of all the toons listed on the main page (especially since we prefer that people use the GM script). If we make the link to the project prominent enough, that should be plenty for now. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 04:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

== Greasemonkey Incompatibility with Newer Firefox Versions ==
 
Not so much a problem with the Greasemonkey script as with Greasemonkey itself. Right now I'm running Minefield 3.0a4, and Greasemonkey doesn't seem to like any versions higher than 2. Is there any simple way to fix this without resorting to the whole "unpack, edit version, repack" thing, or ''is'' that the simple way? LEMME NOES. - {{User:Super_Sam/sig}} 01:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:I wasn't aware that GM even loads &mdash; I haven't tried Minefield yet.  I assume you understand the implications of running alpha level software... one of them being can count on not everything working.  (You can expect that from early ''betas'' even).  Are you trying a similiarly bleeding-edge revision of GM?  You could try using a copy direct from their development [http://svn.devjavu.com/greasemonkey/trunk/ source tree], might help.{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 01:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::The latest version still only works up to Firefox 2, but I tweaked the <tt>maxversion</tt> parameter and I'm good to go. - {{User:Super_Sam/sig}} 04:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

== Browser Compatibility ==

{| border=1 cellspacing=2 cellpadding=2
! Browser !! Greasemonkey !! External Viewer
|- 
| Firefox 1.5 || XP, Linux || XP, Linux
|-
| Firefox 2.0 || XP, Linux, OSX || XP, Linux, OSX
|-
| Firefox 3 ||- || -
|-
| Opera 9 || - || XP
|-
| Safari || - || OSX
|-
| IE 5.0 || - || -
|-
| IE 5.5 || - || XP, [http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page Linux]
|-
| IE 6 || - || XP, [http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page Linux]
|-
| IE 7 || - || XP
|-
| MSN Explorer || - || XP
|-
| SeaMonkey 1.1.1 || - || XP, Linux
|-
| SeaMonkey 1.5 || - || -
|-
| Netscape 7.2 || - || XP
|-
| Epiphany || - || Linux
|}
I've rewritten the external viewer, and now it reportedly runs in most browsers on several OSs. Yay! Thanks to DorianGray, Trey56, Lapper, Tom, Stux, Has Matt? and Dot Com for beta-testing it. If you have a browser/OS combination that hasn't been tested yet, please post the results below (including browser name and version as well as the operating system), and I'll update the box above (kudos to Stux for suggesting the table). Yay! The external viewer is finally doing what it's supposed to do :-D{{User:Loafing/sig}} 23:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:SeaMonkey 1.1.1 works, but what they've got so far for 1.5 loads the toon but not the subtitles, so we may wind up doing this all over again when Firefox 3 comes out. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 10:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
::Yeah, that's not until November or whenever. That's like decades in internet-years ;-) Thanks for testing, everybody! It looks like we've got a good coverage of browsers now.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 11:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
ACupOfCoffee: does this mean that neither viewer works in Firefox 3?{{User:Loafing/sig}} 21:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

== Pop-Up Video ==

This subtitles project is super and awesome and super awesome. I was wondering what people would think about using the subtitles framework for a sort of pop-up video-type commentary track. For instance, the script could tell you where to click for Easter eggs, and maybe run short fun facts. {{User:Homestar Coder/sig}} 15:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
:This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure the benefit would outweigh the expense on this one. What kind of mechanism did you have in mind for this? I dunno... We've done pretty well just listing Easter eggs and things on the wiki. Transcripts are pretty cut-and-dried most of the time, but including fun facts seems like it would just be opening us to having to argue about them in two places instead of one. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 15:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
::I'm not sure what you mean by what kind of mechanism. The subtitle mechanism. What expense would there be? I'm willing to do them. And maybe not fun facts. This stemmed from the fact that I can never remember when to click to get the Easter egg while I'm actually watching the toon. I think it would be neat to have an automatic reminder come up. (Also, if I want to see where to click to get an Easter egg, it's in the same place as what the Easter egg contains so I'm spoiled for it.) {{User:Homestar Coder/sig}} 16:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the compliment, Homestar Coder ^_^. I had actually thought about adding this kind of functionality for Easter eggs at the beginning of the project. I decided against it for several reasons: displaying popups over a Flash object is a much less stable solution than displaying text next to a Flash object. For example, it does not work at all under Linux. Accordingly, our Easter egg hints might often have to be lengthy descriptions on where to click. The timing for Easter egg hints would also have to be asynchronous to the timing of the subtitles, making our display code a little more complicated. Of course it's all technically possible, and probably not such a great deal to implement in a very simple and robust manner. How usable it would be is another question. I also believe that this would take away a great deal of the toons' charm. Easter eggs are supposed to be hard to find, and listing them in an article is already a great help. I suspect that making them even easier to find might make them somewhat boring. But that might just be me. I guess if I find some time in the next few hours, I could whip up a simple example where I replace the subtitles with Easter eggs and fun facts, just to see how it would be... I ''am'' curious.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Cool, thans for the response. I guess the pop-up thing was misleading; I don't want actual pop-ups showing where to click, just text saying "click the word egg!" or some such. There aren't all that many toons where the description of where to click is that long or difficult. And yes, the timing of Easter eggs is asynch to the timing of subtitles; I was always thinking it would be a separate track, so you couldn't have any subtitles on at the same time. As for removing the charm... well, I actually came up with this idea when I was catching up on my toon-watching, and realized I had two choices to make sure I saw all the Easter eggs: hold down tab during the whole toon (annoying) or reading it on the Wiki, which immediately spoils the joke (most of the Easter egg comments are stuff like "click on the word egg to see Homsar cracking an egg on his head!"). {{User:Homestar Coder/sig}} 21:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::Hmmm, here's a rather un-sexy [http://subs.spacecactus.net/subtitles.php?name=sbemail65/en example for sbemail65].{{User:Loafing/sig}} 22:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::Well, I think it's pretty shiny. :) {{User:Homestar Coder/sig}} 03:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::That just proves that you're more of a coder than a user =3 I've added another variant of how to display an egg hint. Still not ideal... One thing that I noticed while coming up with the example was that fun facts are probably not going to work. They work well for music videos, but when you watch a toon, you will probably not want to read something that distracts you from what's going on.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 08:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Well, I totally did not remember that you could click the stacks of paper, and now I did! You're probably right about the fun facts though. {{User:Homestar Coder/sig}} 13:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

== Singing ==
===Data===
As a test, who can see some of these symbols in their browser: <span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 150%">&#9833;&#9834;&#9835;&#9836;&#119135;&#119136;&#119137; ''&#9833;&#9834;&#9835;&#9836;&#119135;&#119136;&#119137;''</span> (I can see the first 4, but not the last 3... I just put them in for completeness)... if they work in enough browser/font setups, perhaps we could use one of them instead of the ''(singing)'' tag in the subtitles... just a thought. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 01:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:Same here, IE7 and Firefox 1.5 for Windows XP (SP2) and Firefox 1.5 and Safari 2 for MaxOS X (10.4.9). Incidentally, the italic versions don't look very good here (and in some cases are the same as the normal versions). &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 01:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:Same here (I'm at work, using Firefox 1.5 for Win XP (SP2)), but the second note of the non-italic version has the vertical line missing.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 01:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
::In the most recent version of Opera (W98), first 4 are same but non-italicized/italicized, last 3 are nothing. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 01:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
===Whether to do it===
I'd advise sticking with plain-English "singing" as that's obviously cross-platform. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 02:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

== Finnish (FI) subtitles ==

I would be quite eager to start out with Finnish subtitling cartoons, as I have absolutely nothing to do after I get home from college (weird, huh?). So if someone would add Finnish there, it'd be much obliged. --[[User:Sysrq868|Sysrq868]] 16:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
:You should be all set. Go crazy go nuts! &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 02:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

== Polish (PL) subtitles ==

What I said. [[User:JudgeDeadd|JudgeDeadd]] 04:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
:You should be good to go. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)