HRWiki:Da Basement

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Revision as of 05:46, 3 November 2006

"Da Basement" redirects here. For the the basement featured in Homestar Runner toons, see Strong Bad's Basement.

Where all the cool guys hang out

Welcome to Da Basement! This is a messageboard for coordinating and discussing administrative tasks on the Homestar Runner Wiki. Although it is aimed mostly at sysops, any user is welcome to leave a message or join the discussion here.

If you have a question regarding how to become a sysop, please read through the FAQ beforehand.

You have fake messages!

Look, before I go there's an issue I have to address. These fake "you have new messages" things on people's userpages that lead people to other stuff? I can't deal with them, they gotz to go. Much like guestbooks, they started out a funny trick. Now it's become a fad. It's seriously annoying for me to see this every time I go on Tampo's userpage—wait, scratch that. It's seriously annoying for me to see this every time I go on pretty much everyone's userpage, especially because I have always enjoyed getting messages. They've gotten pretty bad, too. Like one that logs out the user who gos to it. Now that's just mean. Can we please get rid of these? — Seriously ^(Talk) 00:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Although I thought you had left a while ago, I concur. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  00:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did leave a while ago. It's just that I was reminded of this, and I realized I had one last mssion. If you want to call it a mission. — Seriously ^(Talk) 00:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Have you asked anyone to remove them? What was the reply? — It's dot com 00:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I have asked no one. I thought it would be better to address this matter here. — Seriously ^(Talk) 00:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello? Does anybody even emotely care about this issue? Kinda getting annoying...— Seriously ^(Talk) 00:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I think I inadvertently started this talk; I mentioned in passing on Main Page talk that's annoying to have to update my message prank on Wikipedia every time they change the real one (it used to be like here, then "diff", then "changes", then "last changes"). Then another user commented that the message pranks themselves are annoying, then Seriously agreed and started a topic about that. I have one here too (it goes to Special:Mytalk), but I couldn't be less attached to it. (If they're banned, Yeltensic the Guestbook Vandal won't become Granola the You Have New Messages Prank Box Vandal.) With crap, Yeltensic (T • C) 00:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't really mind. I don't see the harm in having one on your userpage. What's the big deal? Why don't you just ignore them and wait until you're out of the User: namespace? If you can't deal with them and they annoy you this much, then you can always just stop looking at userpages. If you don't like them, don't click them. (And, if you don't mind me asking, Seriously, why does it bother you this much if you're not even going to be here to see them?)—FireBird|Talk 01:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This issue is not even close to a problem. Of the approximately 45 user pages/user talk pages/user subpages that use the "usermessage" class, only 4 people are using them in a way that directly imitates the new messages message (Granola, Not a Robot!, Tampo (6 times), and Whatever your user name is there). If it really bugs you, why don't you ask them directly. — It's dot com 01:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Whatever. {leaves in a huff}

Nah, I'm just kidding. I thought they were annoying, and I could safely say that many other users thought so too. I guess not. I also saw several similarities to the guestbook decision. Most of the arguments there were that people just never really liked them. I thought maybe, that could happen here too. Once again, I guess not. Whatever, see yous guys later. Way later. I'm happy I got one more debate to happen before I leave. — Seriously ^(Talk) 01:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem with the Guestbooks was that it was clogging up Recent Changes. The new messages links don't really do that. I personally think they're unoriginal and somewhat stupid, especially since for a while nearly everybody had them, but gradually that fad's been passing, and as Dot com mentioned, most of them now use the span, but don't directly copy the wording to fool you. It's more of a personal userpage choice then a problem that adversely affects the wiki as a whole. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 03:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Dot com, for calling that to my attention...little did I know that, all along, my prank was incorrect. I wonder if I did the same thing on Wikipedia...? With crap, Yeltensic (T • C) 03:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

To back you up, Seriously... I hate 'em too. --אוקאלייליי (Ookelaylay)

I should clarify. They annoy me. But I do have that choice of not visiting those user pages. Fool me once and all. I suppose it's an avoidable nuisance and therefore not really any sort of crisis. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  04:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

You guys are way behind the times. It was massively bad back then, but it cooled down. Like all fads, it'll go away by itself. Just let the person who has it on their userpage have some fun. - Super Sam 09:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Mine is actually independent of the craze; I just have one here because I already had one on Wikipedia (where it isn't a big fad). With crap, Yeltensic (T • C) 17:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I care. I used to use dial-up, and it took SO much time. And this is fast dial up we're takin' about. Bluebry 01:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you know what? If we're shortening sigs for our dial-up users, why not get rid of something making them take up more time? Bluebry 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how this fake message will really make dial-up-ers pages load drastically slower... - Kookykman(t)(c)(r)

Then use dial-up. Bluebry 23:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

What? The time it would take a page to load with or without a "new message" indicator it virtually identical. It's just text, and not even much of that. Also, we didn't shorten sigs for dial-up users; we shortened them because they were getting out of hand. — It's dot com 23:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

But, if you're new to a wiki, and fall for that, that's a VERY long time. I had it happen all the time when I was new, and am now lucky to have a fast connection. But, trust me, I spent too much time on that. That time could have been converted to productive editing. Bluebry 23:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, like I mentioned above, there's only a handful of people doing it, and only one who does it on pretty much every page in his user space. If you want, you could speak to them directly. — It's dot com 23:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for sysops

We're going to try out a new courtesy policy among sysops. You've probably noticed that double blocking is common now in part due to the recent promotions. (The reason we want to avoid these is because they look a bit unprofessional when different admins block for different durations for the same user, and it can cause degree of unintentional usurping of other sysops' decisions.) While it sometimes cannot be avoided, double blocking can be lessened if we follow this new "policy": The sysop who gets the first revert on a vandal becomes the commanding officer or case worker, and gets rights to the block at his or her discretion. This will prevent multiple blocks of varying durations on the same user, and will give the case worker the freedom to use diplomacy (that is, talk pages) to get the offender to stand down. Use your best judgment if it appears that the commanding sysop is no longer online — either Missing In Action or if the vandalism is separated by more than fifteen minutes' time. If a non-sysop gets the reverts and you don't know if other sysops are keeping an eye on the vandalism, keep aware of your surroundings, slow down a bit, and be sure you search the block log immediately before blocking (using the auto-link on the block page) to be sure someone already hasn't done the deed. Though usually, the vandal need not be blocked at all unless it is especially bad (spamming or otherwise) or ongoing/persistant. It won't do any lasting harm if we slow down a little bit and keep our heads cool... the worst that could happen is a few more bad edits slipping in before the block.

Also, when reverting good-faith edits, please try to avoid using the rollback button. Give your best effort to provide a reason for the revert (all users should do this as much as possible). In the best-case scenario, the rollback button should be used for vandalism only.

—BazookaJoe 03:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm highly in favor of both points. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 03:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

If I can remember to actually do them. ;) I've kinda fallen into the habit of the rollback button, so I might have a harder time with that one. --Jay (Gobble) 04:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a sysop, but when looking at Recent Changes it's HUGE help to me to know why an edit was reverted. I welcome this. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  04:27, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that is a good idea. Wikipedia should have a blocking policy like that. With crap, Yeltensic (T • C) 04:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for it. Especially the rollback one. I used it only once, and I hope it will stay that way. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 09:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I made a change to the software that drastically affects the first paragraph (thus I have grayed it for now). It is now impossible to double-block. Several of you already encountered this earlier when we had a WoW-style attack. The software seems to be functioning as I intended. It seems to me, therefore, that we shouldn't hesitate to block during a big attack, as only the first sysop will be successful. In less severe cases (where the threat is not immediate), seeing whether another sysop has been dealing with the vandal (perhaps trying a diplomacic approach) is a good idea. In short: Feel free to block as quickly as the immediate situation warrants, but if the vandalism is not in progress, take the time to investigate the relevant links, just as if the vandal had been listed on the old WikiTroll. — It's dot com 19:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I have another suggestion: I think we should not use "unwelcome" as the reason for deleting talk pages. I understand that these vandals are in fact not welcome (and that what we're deleting is probably just a welcome message), but I think it looks bad to see in the recent changes. I suggest: "vandal talk page" or something similar. — It's dot com 19:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. No more "unwelcome". Sounds wise to me. And thanks for fixing the software to prevent double blocks; that should be very helpful. Heimstern Läufer 19:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it was a pretty nice thing to avoid during the quick attack. We had enough problems with double page-moving. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 20:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Double page moving? I don't remember any of that! I mean, I never deleted Has Matt?'s page! Umm, uhh, {beats a hasty exit}. NOT Heimi 20:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Heh, yeah that was me that came up with "Unwelcome". I thought it was a good play on words, they are unwelcome, thus they are un-welcome'd. But I see the logic. "Vandal talk page" is better, thanks. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 23:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Just bumping this item into more recent history. I for one really appreciate knowing why my edit needed reversion, and I know the newest users do as well. If sysops rollback edits made in good faith, the new user won't know why the reversion was done, and might very well find it an offensive response. I'm trying to always provide a summary explaining the revert, so maybe next time I (or you) won't have to revert him again for the same thing. Also, I'd propose that if anyone sees a new user making the same editing mistake often, someone should politely and gently "school" them on their Talk page. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  00:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Although the rollback button is always readily available and easy to use, I for some reason still prever the good ol' go-to-last-good-version-edit-write-rv-and-reason-in-the-summary-and-save type of reverting. I think I used it here only three or four times (for trolls and one accidentally). — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 04:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I was just coming here to bring up the exact thing as your second point, BZJ, but I guess you already have that taken care of. I with it agree totally. Ed lim smildE / talk

Automatically block ON WHEELS!!

I am attempting to create a template that will automatically block any user with the phrase "on wheels" (not case sensitive) in the username. This could potentially save us tons of time on blocking. I need a little help, considering I have never created a template or a bot before. · · T²|_Things 21:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to help, but that wouldn't really solve the problem. If we did that, the vandals would just use "on wheelz" or "()|\| \/\/|-|33|_5" or something. Oh well. Keep on tranglin'! — It's dot com 21:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Another issue would be that there might be a legitimate user who would choose to be Pancakes On Wheels or something, and they'd be blocked. They might find that unwelcoming, which runs counter to our goal here. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually looking at the code, it doesn't look like it'll autonmatically block anyone at all. Bluebry 21:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I know that; but for now I have a template, a category, and a note on the Help:Vandalism page, so that new users will know what to look for in terms of vandalism. · · T²|_Things 22:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

We have the delete template for troll pages. Example: {{delete|Troll user page}}. Bluebry 22:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

This is just my opinion, but I don't think new users should be too worried about helping to revert vandalism and report people for blocking. I'd personally prefer the new users to use their initial involvement to get to know the wiki, the sysops, how we do things, what's appropriate and not, etc., and in the process they'll figure all that out along the way. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  22:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily NEW users, just users who aren't as familiar with WoW style vandalism. I joined the RC patrol just after I signed up, and I recently began reverting, just a few weeks after sign up. I wasn't familiar with WoW style until last night. · · T²|_Things 22:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but, no one needs to know vandalizers styles, just that it's vandalism. Bluebry 22:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

We don't need a bot to add a template to tell us that a user needs to be blocked. We've had a discussion beforehand about if we even need a bot to block possible sockpuppets directly, but we came up with a resounding "no" for many of the same reasons: It's easy to avoid being autoblocked; our recent changes do not pass by so quickly that we miss new registered accounts, we have enough admins watching for WoWs nearly round-the-clock, and we hardly spend any time reverting or blocking so it wouldn't save us much time at all. —BazookaJoe 22:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Why not make it use "NSMC" insted of "ON WEELS!"? --Dacheatbot · Communicate 23:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, what we need actually is the Usernameblacklist extention avalible here 144.139.85.30 01:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Visit hrwiki.org

Uh... what happened to our logo? Instead of the usual Homestar logo, all I see is a white box that reads "Visit hrwiki.org"... but... I already am... --Jay (Gobble)

And, might I add, it's extremely unsettling. It just, y'know, feels wrong to have that big mostly-blank space up there. --Jay (Gobble) 04:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Should be fixed now with a hard refresh. Thanks. -- Tom 04:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

And, wouldja look at that, it is. Cool. --Jay (Gobble) 04:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Mister Pellican ****

FYI: Wikipedia:WP:MPS. Another infamous Wikipedia vandal has found his way here. — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 17:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It's probably just a copycat; this guy has been operating here as WoW for a long time now. — It's dot com 17:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't doubting that they were the same guy, I just wanted to make sure we all knew what we may be in for. — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 18:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Messages

Seeing how welcoming new users is carried out these days, I would like to propose hardcoding an automatic welcome message for when users first create accounts. Some might argue that an automatic welcome would be a tiny bit impersonal, but most of these welcomes nowadays are. No matter which way you look at it, we are as close to an automatic welcome now as you can get without it being hard-coded into the system. Unless you're personally helping a new member with a problem or something, It's just as impersonal as an automated message. Automating the messages would barely change anything, and eliminate any bizzare or unorthodox welcomes. We could still welcome new users with help if they need anything, but an automated message would convey the basic links found within most user welcomes. If this is decided to be changed, we would do so after the upgrade to MediaWiki version 1.6. Any opinions, for or against? ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 19:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Your statement implies a problem with "how welcoming new users is carried out these days" - and I don't think I understand where that problem lies. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply there was much of a problem. What I meant was "seeing how welcoming new users is as good as automated these days" why not make it official? ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 21:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you stated, the personal touch would be lost. There's something to be said about a user taking the time to visit your page and personally welcome you. It implies a community which nurtures, and the new user now knows at least one other user on the wiki. I'd be reluctant to support automating that unless there remains a role for individual users to fill in spreading the wiki love. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Where's the personal touch in going to someone's page, who you have no idea who they are, and typing {{subst:welcome}}? The welcome committee has become a well-oiled machine anyway, staring at the newusers log and welcoming new users as soon as they're created... an automatic system would be no different. All we'd lose is the varied and occasionally confusing individual welcome templates, which in my mind wouldn't be a bad thing. My thought is either go back to only welcoming after the newbie has made their first edit (so you have some basis for making the welcome more personal... commenting on anything the newbie seems to be having problems with) or just go automated 'cause it basically is anyways. phlip ^T_C 21:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

There also seems to be some sort of "contest" to see who can welcome the largest number of new users, which makes it even less personal. And causes most in the committee to make extra edits to their user pages/subpages in order to keep track. --Jay (Gobble) 21:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think automating is a good idea. It is true that the welcoming method used now has, unfortunately, become somewhat impersonal. Still, I think it's much better than the completely impersonal way of automation. To me, this seems like the wrong way to go about fixing a problem. What really needs to happen, IMO, is that people need to agree to stop having races to get the most welcomes. I frankly would like to see all the counting how many you've welcomed stop and for people to welcome in order to help people, rather than to boost their welcome count. Heimstern Läufer 21:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

While I see your point, Thunderbird, I agree with Qermaq's "if it ain't broke don't fix it" logic. (Now if we were having a problem with zany or unwelcoming welcomes it would be another matter.) Personally, if there's a problem with it, it's that I suspect the near-instantaneous time leads many users to believe it is automated. I know that was my first thought when I saw my message from Rogue Leader—"Oh, how nice; some guy named Rogue Leader wrote up this form letter and it appears automatically when I create an account." But once I realized a real person had left it, it was more meaningful. And personally, I find the nonstandardization charming. It's dot com's got his well-organized one; I've got my wordy one; Leporello's got his funny one; Dacheatbot's got his artsy one. The less it looks like a template and the more it shows a user's individual creative touch, the clearer it is to the recipient that there's a real person behind it. (But function should come before fancy!) —AbdiViklas 21:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Heimi - what needs to be squelched is the "three-edit welcome" - the welcome post, the addition of the name to a list, and the upping of a number of people welcomed. It's as if there's some glory in having welcomed so many people. There could be an argument for restricting such "welcomed" lists on the basis of eliminating unnecessary items in Recent Changes.... - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Responding to edits that were made after I started the above: Yes, the "welcome count" race does bug me. It makes it seem like the newbie is there to serve their welcome rather than the other way 'round. Before making some kind of official rule about it, though, I'd be in favor of trying to talk one-on-one with the people who do it. Also, in reply to phlip: "the varied"—IMO, good—"and often confusing"—I(Iwouldhopeeverybody's)O bad. Like I just said, the primary goals should be that it includes the most helpful links, and displays them in a way that's easily and intuitively assimilated. It's dot com's is an excellent example of how it can be personalized and super-pragmatic. Again, I'd be in favor of individual interventions with users whose templates are lacking or confusing. —AbdiViklas 22:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The welcoming contest is getting out of hand. We even have had one user create dozens of accounts and welcome them himself—and then carry on a conversation thanking himself for the welcome. What I propose is that when you join, at the top of your talk page you see an automated hey, how are ya, here's some important links. After you've made a few edits, then someone from the committee should leave a personal message. I also think we should completely overhaul the committee. It should be restricted to people who have actually been here a while and know their way around, maybe like a minimum number of weeks and mainspace edits. And then when you welcome somebody, you put them on your watchlist and keep track of them for a while, like a mentor. I don't mean to expand the scope of this discussion, so let me just reiterate that the way we're doing it now is for all intents and purposes automated, so why not make it for real automated and elimintate some abuse in the process. — It's dot com 22:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well If had we done that when I came on I kind of would of felt like, "I've been on here for kind of a while, so It's a little late to welcome me" --Dacheatbot · Communicate 22:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this pertains to me too, as I've been extremely competitive with users in the past with welcoming. I think that Dot com's idea is a prooty good one, as I myself would love to watch a user grow and learn more and more. (Unless it's a vandal, in which case they won't learn anything and I'll totally regret welcoming them. :P) I think there could also be a sorta "rating system"—I know this sounds extremely strange, but bear with me. Sysops (FireBird comes to mind, as he did create the welcoming committee) could permit or not permit users tro create a custom welcome, based on their interacting with other users, their attitude, and their overall knowledge of how to edit things on the wiki. Igf you passed, then you would be able to follow therough with the mentor idea, and you would check up on the user every once and a while to see how things are going. Such a warm welcome for a new user would not only help with users editing, but it would help build up one of the most important part of our wiki, friendships and interaction with other users (Abdi knows about that, he wrote an entire essay on it :P). — Seriously ^(Talk) 22:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

(Gah, too much indenting, starting over...) I dislike the idea of "rating" other users... it's basically just codifying favoritism, nothing more. Besides, it'll just create new avenues for competition... from "hah, I've welcomed more users than you" to "hah, the sysops like me more than you"... Trust and respect can't be quantified, and trying to do so usually just creates cliques and leaves new users in the dark... phlip ^T_C 22:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it does do that, but it would still help. If we've left users in the dark before (SYSOP NOMINATIONS), then I think users can be mature about it. Actually, I think that nearly everybody has a certain amount of maturity, just as they are expected to (quote from It's dot com on his talk page: "Even though actual age doesn't matter, I don't see anything wrong with expecting a certain level of maturity from our users, once they've had a chance to get the hang of things"). — Seriously ^(Talk) 22:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

(responding to two posts back) LOL; thanks for the shout-out. And thanks to both you and Dacheatbot for responding so quickly to suggestions! I'm hearing a lot of ideas above that sound cool, like the mentor thing. I still want to voice an objection to having "first contact" be automated, though. The question of whether or not to automate can develop separately from some of the other ideas proposed. Personally, I still see it as important that a user's first impression come from a real person, rather than waiting until they take the next step of involvement. What if that human welcome decides whether or not they take the next step? So from my perspective, with automation being undesirable, the logic "it's already like an undesirable thing so let's go ahead and make it an undesirable thing" seems weird.

(after one edit conflict) I agree, phlip; the idea of a ratings system made me think, "But that would be subjective, so we'd want to base it on something; maybe after a given number of appropriate welcomes—wait, then we'd have people counting their welcomes!" But nonetheless, the idea of the mentors, as a status conferred after probationary experience, isn't that different from the concept of sysop. On the other hand, it sounds like a significant duty. Maybe if it was made voluntary it would be self-moderating; if the requirements of wiki-experience and significant commitment to a given newbie were made clear, there wouldn't be as much of a rush to join! (And if ill-equipped users tried to, they could be firmly discouraged.) But seriously, if this conversation goes much farther we should maybe split it into one discussion of stopping current practices and another of starting new ones. —AbdiViklas 23:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think you partially misunderstood what I meant (or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying). Someone would not be allowed to welcome another user unless they met certain requirements. Thus, the sysops would not rate you with your number of welcomes as a factor. But I definitely agree with you on the idea of waiting until a user makes an edit to welcome them. That shows a bit more acknowldegment of the user. Example of a good welcome"

"Hey, So-and-so! I've seen you making a lot of great edits lately".

This was it seems a lot less automated, and shows that the welcomer is thinking about the new user as more than just a new user, but an individual user with their own personality". — Seriously ^(Talk) 23:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, forget the whole mentor and user-rating thing for now. That's not what this thread is about, and I'm sorry for veering us off course. Here's the thing: the only way to avoid the appearance of an automated welcome is not to welcome people right away. But if we do that, they miss out on some very important links. It is for this reason alone that I do not object to the instantaneous welcomes that we currently practice. I think an automated list of links, not an actual welcome per se, and then later a personal welcome down the line (after some actual editing has taken place) is the way to go. — It's dot com 23:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

While I see what you're saying, how might we exactly go along with the linking? Would we just put a notice at the beginning of the user's talk page, saying "Links:" and then a list of links? I think that wouldn't work so well. — Seriously ^(Talk) 23:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's pretty close to what's going on now, save for a signature at the end. And I reiterate my agreement with Dot com, per the comments made by myself at the outset of this verbal journey. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 23:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, verbal journey. Sounds like gerbil journey. Heh. (I don't know why I'm acting so stupid). Well, there is often more than a collection of links. There's also a formal welcome to the wiki, a little info about the wiki itself, and some other stuff. — Seriously ^(Talk) 23:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we do away with formal welcomes. I'm saying that we should separate the list of impersonal but necessary links from the rest of the welcome, which can be handled by an actual user at a later time. — It's dot com 23:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

(inserted in chronology after Seriously's reply) Actually, I'd kind of prefer the opposite if anything! (For reasons below.) —AbdiViklas 23:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying that the links would come by another user that's not the welcomer whn the user appears to be having trouble through edits? If so, that would go hand in hand with the mentor idea (which, as you said, is completely off-topic). — Seriously ^(Talk) 23:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what I said at all. — It's dot com 23:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

And I guess I can just reiterate my exception (though I promise this'll be the last time!). See, I think the value of the "welcome" as such—as a welcome—is possibly greater than the value of the links. Don't get me wrong, the links are a treasure trove, but the users who need them most tend to be the most likely to delete them without following them. I mean, I remember what I thought: "Bla bla, link to the help section; sure. I don't have time for that right now, and everybody knows you only go to "help" when you have a problem." But like I said earlier, there's something important about the welcome aspect of the welcome. And something important about it being the first thing a newcomer encounters. Let's face it; most of us either sought this place out, wound up hooked, or continue to stick around out of social reasons. Perhaps a few sit down and say, "I think I'll find a knowledge base where I can contribute to factual information!", but I'd venture a guess they tend to be computer programmers. For me, the thing that really drew me in was the fact that I was flattered by the affirmation people left on my talk page at first, and on some unpleasant level of the Id I continue to be involved because it allows me to grab at least some of the spotlight some of the time. I'd say for many users the strongest lure of the wiki is the knowledge that when they talk here, real people will hear them. And a surprising number will often care!

Bottom line: sure, leave more personal messages as users contribute more, and let's deal with three-edit welcomes and templates that need work. But I feel strongly that as long as initial contact can be human, and can be perceptibly human, that's preferable. —AbdiViklas 23:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

There is but one problem I have with Dot Com's idea: There will be mass confusion of when to or to not welcome someone--Dacheatbot · Communicate 01:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Mass confusion? No. Slight confusion that accompanies any new thing? Perhaps. But also like any new thing, it would just take some getting used to. — It's dot com 01:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

IMO The Mentoring Idea sound good on paper (digital paper in this case) but with more and more users popping up it would be a lot to keep track of.--Dacheatbot · Communicate 22:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Now that we're in 1.6, we may as well start this conversation up again and make a decision. I am still highly in favor of automating a basic welcome message if feasable. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 20:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

After reading this entire thread again, I'm not sure what to do. At first, I was all for automated welcomes, due to the questionable taste of a few of the personalized templates and aforementioned three-edit-welcomes. The idea of a standardized message that gets out just as quickly with less hassle was appealing, and the idea of rehashing the welcoming committee into a mentor committee sounded promising as well. But Abdi's arguments are compelling. A personalized instant welcome does give a slightly warmer feel than a programmed one, but then it leads to problems with nobody following up on all of the new users. I think even with no change we should consider the mentoring program, but that leads to more problems with making sure the welcomers follow through and know enough about the way things work around here. In the end, I'm still undecided on what do do here, but I am interested to hear some fresh input along with Thunderbird. Username-talk 01:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If we are to make the Welcoming Committee into a mentoring program, which I am all for, I believe we should start a basic screening process and make sure joining users know and fully intend to carry out the responsibilities associated with being such a mentor. And by "screening process" I mean almost anything... only regular users, only users with x edits, only users who can demonstrate themselves, etc. In any case, we need more opinions to come to a consensus. — Lapper (talk) 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Scholars

I am a professor and I am looking for anyone interested in writing an essay on homestarrunner, topic of your chosing to be compilied later.

Why would a professor be looking for someone to write them an essay? -- Tom 20:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I might be interested in writing an essay at some point for a professor, provided 1) you explain how a professor interested in the topic neglects to capitalize a proper noun, 2) you explain how a professor requesting scholarly works allows "chosing" and "compilied" to be present in the request, and 3) you indicate (via private mail, via my Talk page, if desired) your name, position and school, and ideally a link to your biography, with emphasis on your relevant expertise and how it relates to this internet entertainment site. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  23:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In other words, we're skeptical. why don't you go boast your "expertise" somewhere else? — Seriously ^(Talk) 02:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Timestamps. Read 'em. Seriously. — It's dot com 02:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In other words: Duh!! - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Dot com: Seriously, man. I mean Seriously. What's up with Seriously not leaving timestamps? I mean Seriously! ;) — Seriously ^(Talk) 13:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Protecting Main Page Images

This question has been discussed before, with the general feeling being that it really doesn't serve much of a purpose as long as the main page template is unprotected. Therefore I move that we do away with protecting main page images, since not only is it a hassle to keep up, but it really is quite redundant, as any vandal could just replace the image with anything else on the unprotected template anyways, which has rarely (if ever) happened. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 23:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

The learning curve for editing (and even finding) Template:whatsnew is much steeper than the ease of clicking on the image, which brings one to the image description page where the "Upload a new version of this file" link is present. -- Tom 02:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

A note of thanks

See For you and all the others...

1.6

What's the word on the upgrade? — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 05:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Not long, looks like less than a week. All key systems installed (including captcha, which we installed this afternoon). We just have a couple of bugs to work out before we go live. — It's dot com 05:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is gonna be awesome. I'll be here for an upgrade! I'll watch a probably-not-that-improtant-piece of history! So what exactly will be different, and why is it important for us to upgrade? — Seriously ^(Talk) 02:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll reply to the part of your query "...what exactly will be different...". — Lapper (talk) 21:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As to the importance, it really boils down to the fact that once a new version is released, it usually isn't long before security fixes stop coming for the old one. So the only way to get them is to upgrade. — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

MediaWiki still releases security updates for the legacy versions 1.4 and 1.5. -- Tom 22:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured mark?

Shouldn't we have something on a page that tells you it is/was a featured article (like the star on Wikipedia, or the alternate "Featured" logo on Uncyclopedia)? ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 17:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

On the talk page of every featured article there is the {{featuredarticle}} template. — Lapper (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, because I didn't see one on Strong Mad. ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 19:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It's on Talk:Strong Mad. —BazookaJoe 19:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that The Mu's idea is good. It would give a quick indication of a featured article. I think something like Wikipedia's bronze star (see Wikipedia:Automatic number plate recognition for an example) would be good. It's non-instrusive and informative. - Super Sam 10:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at {{featuredicon}}... the results of me experimenting with the Wikipedia template... phlip ^T_C 12:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with marking our articles as featured, especially in the main namespace, not because the star isn't clever—it's plenty clever—but because we are so cavalier about which articles we choose. I am not saying that we should choose articles differently. We have a style of choosing that works for us. What I am saying is that it doesn't lend itself to permanent recognition. For example, today's featured article is the TV Time Toons Menu, which is interesting, but hardly an example of "one of the best articles produced by the Homestar Runner community." — It's dot com 13:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Our method of choosing articles has little to do with whether or not they're among our finest articles. Rather, we have certain sequences to follow (such as featuring all the main characters) and we like to stick in other things that are major sections of or toons on the H*R.com itself. I don't think we should use that star. Heimstern Läufer 13:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

True... I thought the same thing when {{featuredarticle}} was being put on talk pages... we're not Wikipedia, which can have a new FA every day and still only pick the cream of the crop... we're limited by the number of articles we have. Looking back, the majority of the FA's are about an interesting aspect of H*R, rather than a necessarily good page on HRWiki (though the former can help with the latter, if only because it directs more eyes to the page). This is kinda why I didn't start putting {{featuredicon}} on pages... phlip ^T_C

I have the same problem with {{featuredarticle}} on talk pages, but there's just not ever been a good time to bring it up. At the very least, that template needs to be reworded. — It's dot com 14:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree and agree. —BazookaJoe 14:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The verbiage of {{featuredarticle}} was mentioned during the HRWiki:Featured Article Selection/General Discussion#Featured Template and HRWiki:Da Basement/Archive 2#Daily Features discussions, but never addressed. I think it could be reworded. -- Tom 17:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And the recent change looks great! -- Tom 17:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

(Referring to the link Tom just posted) I changed the image and reworded the template. In both cases I tried to capture the essence of our selection process. — It's dot com 17:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I also find that the new template better exemplifies our process of choosing featured articles. — Lapper (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

When I first made it, I just copied from Wikipedia. But now it realy have that HRWiki feel to it. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 17:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I still like the star better. --Trogga 16:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Without star, nothin'. The one big reason to place a badge in the upper-right corner of each featured article, regardless of what anyone might say, is that otherwise, it looks like nobody on the wiki knows how. You don't want that. — Darth Katana X ( )

I disagree. The fact that someone might think we lack wiki savvy is no reason to wield it in ways we do not need. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

With the star, people can see that this is a featured article without goin' to the talk page. --Trogga 11:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it's not all that important to know if something's a featured article... as discussed above, if an article is featured it says more about the topic than it does about the article itself. phlip ^T_C 12:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

But we gotta look legit, man! Even if the featured articles aren't anything to write home about, that doesn't mean a badge isn't in order. — Darth Katana X ( )

The reason Wikipedia has stars is because there are tons and tons of pages about all sorts of things, and tons of vandals, and the pages can't be monitored and worked on by the entire community, so when one article is very good it deserves a marking. This isn't how we do it here, and because it's a smaller space based on one thing, every page is about on the same level of quality. I'm fine with the tag on the talk page. Salty^Talk! 23:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That reasoning is still confusing, just like the reasoning for calling the Fhqwhgads Robot "Visor Robot" back then. No offense, but why not just do it? Are you doing this for yourself or the user, anyway? Most regular users wouldn't waste their time on talk pages, because if you're not a member of the community, it's irrelevant (I know I don't look at talk pages to wikis I don't contribute to). Besides, we could make a star like the one on Homestar's shirt. That would be cute and clever. — Darth Katana X ( )

But it's also irrelevant to a casual reader which pages are featured and which aren't. To a casual reader, knowing which pages have been featured gives no information about the topic, or the quality of the page – all it says is that we think the topic is interesting. This is unlike Wikipedia where a featured star means that the article is high quality, which is useful information for researchers using Wikipedia as a source... but it carries no such weight here. phlip ^T_C 04:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. I still think we need one. Not having one just makes the wiki look like a n00b community. — Darth Katana X ( )

Putting stars just for stars' sake is making us look like a n00b community. And the wiki would eventually look like Strong Bad's webpage. Loafing 04:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that doing what need not be done is a hopeless waste of time. Also, why would the reader care that we think this or that is important? Don't talk down to them. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  04:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

IRC scheduled chats

I propose that we put the scheduled chat notice back in the sitenotice, as it was up until November, at which point it was apparently taken down due to spamming issues. However, with very few outright spamming attacks, the most recent being of a recently blocked user, who was subsequently banned without issue, the channel has no reason not to be advertised. In fact, it has reason for to be advertised, what with the unsatisfyingly low average user count. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets nostalgic about those friendly Mondays and Fridays. — Lapper (talk) 15:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm up for putting the notice up every now and then. —BazookaJoe 19:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Sysop Nominations

Is there an open sysop nomination page? Just wondering. -- Super Martyo boing! 04:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope, we only add sysops when we think that we need them. Rogue Leader / (my talk) 04:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Also see here. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Question From a Sysop Wannabe

Dear Sysops,

How would you get to be a sysop? I was also wondering if anyone could help me learn html (Okay, I'll learn HTML on my own....). Any help?? Please??

Sysop Wannabe,

Unme93 ^T/_C

Read this. --Jay (Gobble) 19:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Audio Articles

While reading Swears out loud with a very bad English accent for my own weird amusment, I had an idea: How about we have audio versions (.ogg) of featured articles? Wikipedia have those and I think we should also. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 14:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Although this would certainly be entertaining, I question the practicality of having audio versions of our articles. What is Wikipedia's reason for having them? Accessibility? — Lapper (talk) 15:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not really accessibility, but that's still a minor reason. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia#Benefits for the full list. I don't think it would work too well for us though, as we have significantly less content that it could be done with and those articles change quite a bit. But hey, if you want to record it for kicks and see how many laughs you get, it might be funny. -- Tom 17:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You know what? I'll do it. I'll read Homestar Runner (Flash cartoon) and upload the ogg to the wiki, use it, delete it, it's up to you. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 17:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, crap. The microphone part of my audio card is busted, so I can't record anything for a while. Anyone else wants to do it? — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 17:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I'll do it. A bonus for those who don't join our Skype calls. I'm afraid I don't have the means to convert it to vorbis, though. Perhaps someone can change it later. I'll start tomorrow. — Lapper (talk)

If you want, you can send me the file in any format you'd like and I'll turn it to .ogg — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 19:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Try Audacity. It's free and has the capability to export as Ogg Vorbis. ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 20:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was going to use. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 20:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Oop. I was talking to Lapper. ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 20:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I vote Rogue Leader to do the talking. :) (Seriously, if you haven't heard his voice, make it your goal to do so. It's awesome.) —FireBird|Talk 03:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I completely and utterly agree! Someone who is not a ruler of a variation of thieves

Why, thank you kind annony who is in no way not me or my computer obsessed sister. I wouldn't mind doing it. My voice does kick butt! Rogue Leader / (my talk) 06:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Rogue, you're completely insane and obsessed with your own voice. Which, by the way, can't actually be "handome". I'm sure your sister had a fun time typing into the computer-box, as well. — Lapper (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you guys. The first spoken article is online [1]. It's not quite a featured article, but an... erm.. important part of the wiki nonetheless. Also, notice the new template that goes on the description of the media file. We should set up a page, describing how to create and label spoken articles. And we might want to put something in place for claiming an article. Phlip nearly recorded Homestar Runner (Flash cartoon), not knowing that Lapper had already done that. Loafing 11:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, I'm going to have to interject on that one. Homestar Runner (flash cartoon) is actually first, in that (a) it's an article, and (b) the only reason it hasn't been uploaded yet is a restriction on server upload size. It should be done by this afternoon. — Lapper (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

For the actual cartoons, we could capture the audio and then record the actions in between pauses. And Loafing, your voice sounds funny. :-P ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 02:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems E.L. Cool came up with two ideas at the same time; one of them flourishing, and one of them being quickly forgotten. I guess this project may have to wait for its turn. — Lapper (talk) 12:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the new subtitles project doesn't mean this one have to stop. If my sound card wasn't busted then we would already have the first spoken article. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 21:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

How would one get an ogg player? --Dacheatbot · Communicate 03:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Try this page. Trey56 03:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I should probably get around to uploading this. It's been sitting around in my Documents folder for like two months now. — Lapper (talk) 03:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't get us mixed up

Just so no one gets confused, I thought I'd explicitly mention that I'm setting up an account for my wife, Janene. She has volunteered to help handle some of the proprietor responsibilities around here like updating the ledger and activating forum accounts when we receive COPPA forms. I don't anticipate her doing much more than that, but in order for her to do these things I have granted her the sysop and proprietor roles here on the wiki and will grant her administrative privileges on the forum when I set her up over there. Her username is JaneneDay, and I'm sure she would appreciate a warm welcome, which I have no doubt will happen mere seconds after I post this. In fact, someone may notice her new account and welcome her before I've even posted this. You guys are always on the ball. Oh, and sorry I haven't been around much. I have more time on my hands now and would like to get more involved again, but I'd also like to get the Homestar Runner Network off the ground, so I may end up using my time over there. At any rate, I'm starting to miss all you crazy people. Cheers! — Joey (talk·edits) 01:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It'll be great to have such a well-known new user on HRWiki, and I'm proud to have made such a welcome. I'm sure Janene (or JaneneDay) will be warmly regarded. We miss you, too, Joey. — Lapper (talk)

Now we can truly say that the HRWiki is a family-run business. :-D ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 01:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Joey. Hi Janene. —BazookaJoe 01:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've now removed Janene from the sysop group. The permissions for the proprietor role have been modified so that she has exactly the access she needs to do the paperwork she'll be doing without any additional privileges she doesn't need. You should still welcome her, though, of course. ;) — Joey (talk·edits) 03:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Subtitles

Some of us have started working on subtitling Homestar Runner Flash cartoons to make them accessible to a wider audience. I would like to know what the HRWiki folks think about this. Should this be a part of the knowledge base wiki? Should it be separate? Would you help? The subtitles are based on the transcripts from the wiki, so there is a strong connection already. The subtitles project is still beta, but it should work with Firefox and Internet Explorer. Most subtitles have been donated by Phlip from an older project, and I and Elcool have done the international ones. Check it out and let us know. Loafing 22:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I personally know one person who'd be interested in that... --Jay (Gobble) 22:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly support having some way to intergrate the subtitles files into the wiki. As a non-native speaker sometimes I need to go over the wiki transcript just to see what a word or two means. This way , it's already inside the toon window itself. Also, we could open the door for people with hearing problems who still want experiance Homestar Runner like the rest of us. Some flash artists like Weeble from Weeble and Bob and the people behind Too Much Spare Time Animation have already added subtitles to some of their toons. So If TBC aren't going to do it themselvs, we are here for them. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 22:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The .xml file for Exp Film's Commentary doesn't work. --Jay (Gobble) 22:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Cheers, fixed the link. Also, listening to the commentary is currently not possible anyway, because of Flash security measures :-/ And I forgot to upload the experiment film subs, will have to wait until I'm back home. Loafing 23:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We need this in the Greasemonkey script, pronto. ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 02:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I showed it to the person I previously alluded. The biggest reason I got into H*R in the first place was because it allowed me to share the gift of Homestar with this person, who cannot hear. She says she likes the subtitled stuff better than the Wiki. "But no offense." --Jay (Gobble) 03:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, you just made my day :-D  Loafing 05:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Deaf watchers, eh? I'd assume captions, as opposed to subtitles would be more important then, yes? (For the uninitiated: subtitles transcribe the words, captions transcribe all the sound effects too.) phlip ^T_C 05:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Take 'em as they come. --Jay (Gobble) 05:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let's just say, hypothetically, I wanted to make one of these. How would I get the frame numbers to start/stop each line on? And how would I test it? --Jay (Gobble) 06:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

We haven't quite worked out the standards for subtitles/captions yet, so the format may change a little. But if you want to try it now, then here's how you do it: You need Phlip's Firefox Greasemonkey script. This will give you a seek bar for Flash toons from Homestarrunner.com. It also displays the current frame number. Then you grab one of the XML files from the subtitle site, scoop it empty, and use it as a skeleton. You probably also want to copy the text of the transcript into this file and split it up into short sections or sentences that you want to display as one title. Then use the seekbar to find the first and last frame numbers for each of the sections. It gets easy after you've done it once or twice. And you get to know the toon pretty well. Also note that each character has his or her own colour code. I'll put a page online soon with some more detailed hints, and I'll come up with a way of testing the titles. — I'm still not sure where to put the page with instructions. Do people believe this should be an HRWiki project, or should it be separate?  Loafing 06:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Aside from the frame numbers, I'd pretty much figured that all out. I have the beginnings of a Halloween Potion-ma-jig .xml file, but without frame numbers. --Jay (Gobble) 06:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sound promising :-) I'll come up with a test page soon(ish). And you've heard that before, but... you should really be on IRC ;-)  Loafing 06:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never successfully managed to join IRC when a useful conversation is taking place. Plus, I have issues getting to it. --Jay (Gobble) 06:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright you guys, I finished the .XML file for Cool Tapes. Ding! ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 03:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Is there a talk page specifically for this project? I thought of some things to discuss, but we'd flood Da Basement. I think there should be some sort of central Wiki page for this project, even if it's in a User space. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not in the mood for IRC right now, but I figured I'd give an update. I have all of the text in my .xml file. I do not, however, have any frame numbers past the three Coach Z/Pom Pom scenarios. --Jay (Gobble) 06:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Qermaq: Asked and ye shall recieve. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 10:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Updating the WIKI Logo

Some of you may have noticed I made a Wiki Decemberween logo recently. I won't talk about that here yet as it is still a good way soff. But... Well, I was thinking, the current wiki logo is pretty good, but the version of Homestar on it looks pretty outdated from what he actually looks like on the site these days. So I made a few updated versions. It is pretty much the same logo, with minor changes... the biggest being the addition of a more modern Homestar.

1. The Current Logo
2. A new darker outline
3. Outline similar to what we have now
4. With a Star Theme - slight blur
5. Star Theme - no blur
6. BLACK Logo with white Outline (can also be without outline)
7. Just a cool animated gif (wait 30 seconds)
8. This is a BRAND NEW one that I like a lot.
9. Due to popular demand - This is the same as above but he blinks every 15 seconds
10. Same as logos above, but this is the PNG (Now homestar is in the field)
11. Homestar in the field - blinking (15 second intervals)
12. Again, same new style logo, but this time it has the old style bg
13. Same as above but animated blinking
14. Blinks every 4 seconds
15. Blinks every 7 seconds
16. Blinks every 13 seconds
17. With a Holiday Theme
18. No H*R logo anymore
19. BRAND NEW Lappy Logo
20. Same as above but Homestar blinks like the previous logo idea
21. A group shot from Weclome Back
22. A welcome back style logo with blinkage!
23. Slightly different than the above

The animated one (although neat) is here just to show something cool I made :). It would be cool but we've already discussed in the chat channel how an animated logo could get annoying, plus it's around 60 kb (double the size of the current normal logo).

I just thought I'd throw this out there. I know tastes are varied.-- »Bleed0range« 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think they look slick. I prefer the darker outline as a change of pace (of color that is, not thickness. The black outline seems to be about the same thickness as what we have now, and that's the way I like it.) Nice work. Vote for hrwikinew_outlined.png. —BazookaJoe 22:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with BazookaJoe. I've long grown tired of our original logo and have been in favor of the puzzle globe logo for a few months now. I think the hrwikinew_outlined logo is most suitable. — Lapper (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Definitely, I would like the black or white outline. I also used the globe logo for some time, by the way, I got rid of the text in my CSS monobook but it's still in the uppercorner --Dacheatbot · Communicate 23:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the animated one is very funny, but animation gets old very quick. I am definitely in favor of modernizing Homestar, though. — It's dot com 23:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I really like the animated one, but I'm sure it would become distracting soon. I would prefer wikihrlogo_new.png for the new logo, the one with the darker outline might be a bit too prominent. Loafing 23:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I made two more new ones. Trying to think "differently."-- »Bleed0range« 00:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see a completely different logo. --Trogga 01:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Me too. But I'm out of ideas. Suggestions?-- »Bleed0range« 02:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The two new ones are too shiny and jumps right in your eyes. I like hrwikinew_outlined.png the best, but will also settle on wikihrlogo_new.png. See new vote below. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 06:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone remember where that old alternate logo got to? The one that kinda combined the H*R logo with the wiki? --DorianGray

These? --ENUSY 06:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Or this one? Loafing 06:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, those ones, Venusy. Just thought they should be mentioned. They are different than our current one, so... Yeah. --DorianGray

I don't like those two. The green seems odd. But I liked the HR logo idea. I made another that's vastly different from the first ones I made. Black with the HR logo. Take a look. My personal favorite is hrwikinew_outlined.png-- »Bleed0range« 06:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It's got potential. But: the black background stands out too much from the page, it should be something much lighter. Basic layout rules also suggest that Homestar faces right if he's on the left border of the screen. And I personally like it much better with Homestar looking at the reader (i.e. with the eyes reversed compared to the current black logo). Having said that, I think it's cool to replace the text "Homestar Runner" with the h*r logo. We'll have to make sure that we still look like an independent wiki, though. Hmmm, have you thought about moving Homestar up a bit, so that the star on his shirt basically replaces the star from the logo? Loafing 01:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I was trying to get it to look like his star shirt replaced the start in H*R. It's hard to get the HR logo and Homestar to fit with-in the dimensions of the small logo and still be visible to a pleasing extent. The logo was thrown together as an idea. I could make another, possibly a white one instead of black... or maybe I could use the kind of background that the current one has but with the H*R logo idea. What is the dimension limit for the logo anyway? So I know what I can work with.-- »Bleed0range« 02:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't really have anything to do with the above logos, but I think it'd be cool to have Homestar blink every so often (like on your userpage, BleedOrange). —FireBird|Talk 02:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's animated, thus more kilobytes, thus making it harder to load and such. Cool idea, though. -Brightstar Shiner 02:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I like the idea of the blinking...and it would only require three or four different frames at most, right? (just with varying lengths of time) I actually like the basic style of the current logo, but I'm interested to see whether or not other users think it would be distracting to have the logo blink. (by the way, of the options you suggested, I like #3 the best.) Trey56 03:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Trey, I like 3 best. I like the current logo, just the Homestar pic needs updation. Unless you come up with some awexome new one, I might change my mind. Salty^Talk! 04:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That's what I thought would happen when it said "wait 30 seconds". Having him blink would be pretty nifty. — Lapper (talk) 04:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

OK guys. My latest one looks pretty darn good, I think. I added two new images. I took the HR logo idea and tried to make it seem as though Homestar's Star on his shirt replaces the star in the logo. The first image is just a regular PNG image. It's about 30 kb in size (28 I think). It's nice and different. (I personally like it with his mouth open) Second image is him blinking (due to popular demand). It's actually only 11 kb I think and pretty small. He blinks only once for a split second every 15 seconds. I can increase that or decrease that timing depending on how obtrusive you guys think it would be. After making it, I honestly don't find it to be all that distracting of an animation. This is probably the last image I'll make as it's my personal favorite as far as approaching something new. Otherwise, if this logo isn't a suitable replacement, maybe we should stick with the older type design with an updated Homestar. Please do let me know what you think of this new one. I like it a lot.-- »Bleed0range« 05:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow! I really, really, like that brand new blinking one. I say we go for it. It isn't that distracting, but if we get sick of it, we can always switch to the png. And then when we get sick of that after a year or two, we can switch to the wealth of rock-rock-on logos Bleed0range has made. —BazookaJoe 05:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for the blinking one, now. That or the dark outline. The blinking would probably work better if he blinked once every 3 seconds or so. However often he blinks in the cartoon works. — Lapper (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. 15 seconds or more is good. 90% of our viewing population doesn't know or care how often he blinks, anyway. I'd rather go with something that's less distracting for me. —BazookaJoe 05:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with that. Homestar blinks every appx. 3.9 seconds; set it to 15 and his little eyes will dry out, and more importantly, then why bother with the blinking as 95% of the viewers never see it happen? I say do it as it's done in the toons or don't at all. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  10:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the 15 second delay, but what about making the background transparent/adding in a non-white background? By the way, great work so far.... Trey56 05:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I couldn't sleep. I feel like I need to finish this thing. I tried making a transparent image, but it didn't look so good around the logo (and the white glow around Homestar looked awful transparent). So I changed the bg color but it didn't seem right. SOOOo.. I put him in a natural setting. The Field. Tell what u think! I'd like to hear. I think it looks nice.-- »Bleed0range« 06:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

OK! Added two more images. lol. I thought maybe the new logo idea would look best with the old logo's style of background. Take a look. A stationary and an animated one again. This is my personal favorite so far. I think this is the best look.-- »Bleed0range« 08:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a slight visual hiccup in the text for the animated Field and animated blue background logos. --DorianGray

I know, I fixed it. I forgot to change the bevel/emboss on the text from one frame to the next. It works right now.-- »Bleed0range« 08:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Same hiccup happens for #13; despite this, I think #13 is perfect, and I would be happy with it as a replacement, personally. Trey56 08:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

13 is good. I again prefer more canon blinking. Otherwise it'll never be seen. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  10:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well. The only reason I put a 15 second timer on the blinking is because I thought it might be too obtrusive if it were less than that. I can adjust the blinking to 4 seconds (which is what the one on my user page does) or pretty much anything. Do you guys want it to be 4 seconds or do you want it to be more than that? (3.9/4 is what the HR cartoons do I think).-- »Bleed0range« 16:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you get rid of that white glow around Homestar? It looks out of place. --Trogga 18:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the white glow, personally. If anyone else agrees with you Trogga, I'll take it out. Otherwise it's staying. I made another logo. This one blinks quicker than the other one. I did 7 seconds. 4 seconds still seems too fast but I made one that does that too just so you could compare. And for the heck of it I made a 13 second one. I am kinda covering all the bases so please let me know which one you like most.-- »Bleed0range« 18:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should use anything that uses their official logo in any way. Using Homestar is one thing, but using part of their actual logo as our logo just seems forreallywrong. Also, it needs to have the words "Homestar Runner Wiki" on it. — It's dot com 18:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think people will still know that we're the Homestar Runner Wiki, not the H*R Wiki. --Trogga 19:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's dot com, I don't see anything wrong with using the H*R logo at all. The point of the logo is for Homestar's star shirt to represent the start in H*R... and everyone knows who is coming to the site (or can figure it out relatively easy) what H*R is. I could add the words Homestar Runner but then that would downplay the reason the logo and Homestar is in it. You have a problem with using the logo for what reason though? The icon that we use in the URL has the H*R logo on it with a big W below it. Which is the same concept. If you had a problem (or have) with that idea then the icon shouldn't use it either. And what's the difference between using the barrage of screenshots on the site or the image of Homestar himself versus the logo. Do you think people will get us confused as the official Homestar Runner Wiki? There is no official wiki so they can't confuse us with one. Besides, this is the closest thing to an official one if there was one. The logo is an integral part of the H*R universe and I see the logo pretty much all over this wiki. I see it next to links to the official site, etc. So I don't see how it being in our logo is that big of a deal. This wiki already looks very professional and if they were going to make the leap to think it is tied in to the official website somehow they probably already would have.-- »Bleed0range« 00:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have wanted to change the favicon for a while now; it was made before I had a say. Either way, it is irrelevant to this discussion. Repurposing their official logo as our big, main, official logo is not what we should do. There are plenty of other ways we could design our logo that would be just as good or better. — It's dot com 00:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Well. Not to be rude. But your say alone does not make this decision. It will have to be weighed in with other's thoughts. I do respect your side though. I understand this arguement, but your just getting into territory of whether or not we should have a logo at all. I do not believe anyone's going to confuse this with being official, neither do I think they'll have a hard time figuring out what H*R means. And I never saw the logo as anything more than the letters H and R with Homestar standing in front of it. I realize that it's the official logo. I've seen about a billion Star Wars sites that use the same logo used officially and no one has a problem with that. Most fan sites do that sort of thing. And the wiki fits the bill in that sense. And the favicon is NOT irrelevant to this discussion. If your going to bring up the question of whether we should use the H*R logo at all, obviously the favicon is part of that.-- »Bleed0range« 01:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dot Com. We shouldn't use the official logo so as not to confuse people (even though your suggestions look really cool, bleedy). Loafing 01:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I added another image. To show you what it would look like as a Holiday logo. I know it needs some work on the snow, I can fix that later. This was a quick setup.-- »Bleed0range« 19:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Now I love 14 and 15. I say we should go with one of those, preferably 14 but I think it should be whichever one matches his blinking in the toons. How often does he blink in the toons? Salty^Talk! 01:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I took out the H*R logo just so you guys can see what it looks like without it. It still blinks at 7 seconds. I still like 14 and 15 best as well.-- »Bleed0range« 01:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Man! I drop in for my increasingly-rare visit and find this cornucopourri of logii! First of all—dang, Mr. Orange. You are prolific. Thanks for all those options.

Secondly, weighing in on the logo discussion above: I don't think the primary concern is that we might be mistaken as official. The primary concern for me is one of copyright. While the wiki (i.e. our original contributions) is CCL, H*R is, at least in their legal page, plain-old all-rights-reserved. While they don't seem to take a very bloodthirsty approach to that—and yeah, it's probably just to cover themselves—we really ought to go by what they say officially, not just "They don't seem like the sueing type." Now the copyright question has come up many times in the past, and my contribution to the conversation is always to point out that I really don't know squat. There might actually be sound defenses for using logos in this way... But even if there are, then the secondary we-really-ought-to-have-a-logo-of-our-own argument comes into play. I like the idea of something alluding to their logo—the way past designs have incorporated the color scheme and rising-sun effect—showing a visual kinship to it, but not exactly the same.

And, finally: about blinking: I like the idea of longer times. In response to "not everyone will see it"—that's kind of what I like about it. It's the same mentality behind Easter eggs (and, before our services, TBC's use of Real-World References that maybe only a handful of people would get). With 4 seconds, the user's train of thought is "Oh, look at that, he's blinking." With something like 13 or even more, it's: "La dee da, reading this page, checkin' out da content, I—what the! Did Homestar just blink?" {stares at logo} "Hm... guess I imagined it... oh well... looking back at the middle of the page and reading the contentYAAAAH! That time I could have sworn he did it!"

Oh, and so far (after just a cursory inspection), I actually really like #4 and 5! (Like, best!) —AbdiViklas 01:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think those are some very good points. About the copyright issue, I don't see that it's that much worse to use the H*R logo as part ours than it is to use images of Homestar that were captured from their website, but if there's a good legal/ethical argument for not including their logo as part of ours, then, hey, I'm sure we can find more than one equally-awesome logo. As things stand, we currently have scads of TBC's property all over this wiki; it's a testament to their generosity that they've never said a word about it. On top of this, the we-really-ought-to-have-a-logo-of-our-own argument® is a good one. Have you forgotten what got us here? No Loafing got us here! So let's take another look at Bleedy's suggestions and get back to work! Trey56 03:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read TBC's legal page. Technically all images, the logo and the likeness of the characters are all copyrighted. The logo is no different than using any images of Homestar or anything like that. Considering TBC themselves use this Wiki, they probably could care less about what the wiki's logo is. So really I do not believe it's any different than using a picture of Homestar with the same font they use for Homsar and copying the basic design of the intro. Which is what the current logo technically is. The logo uses the H*R logo but places Homestar in the middle so his shirt's star replaces their logo's star. It uses their logo but this makes it it's own. The design of that logo is inspired by their own. I could remake their logo in photoshop but that would take forever. Really I don't see how it's that big of a deal. I'm fighting for it pretty hard because I think it's the best representation of what our logo SHOULD look like.-- »Bleed0range« 03:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Salty does not like 18. Salty^Talk! 02:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I made two BRAND NEW logo ideas. These will probably be my last. I'm running out of ideas. This one is geared around lappy. It features Homestar messing with Strong Bad's computer, in one Homestar blinks and the other has the cursor constantly blinking (probably distracting). I still like my last idea best. #14 and 15. I think that's all the logos I'll be making. It's time for some decision making to go down ya'll!-- »Bleed0range« 03:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

20's pretty good. I like it. Others are nice too, but this one's unique. BTW I agree on not using the h*r logo, bot for any trademark reasons but just so we do something different to set us apart from the canon site. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, my problem with using the official H*R logo as part of our logo is not from any legal concern (it has been pointed out numerous times that this whole site exists only because TBC allow it to), but rather it's an ethical one. Taking someone else's logo, or even imitating it, to use as one's own logo crosses some line in my mind. I don't have problems with using elements from the official site for use on our site like we currently do, but we shouldn't brand ourselves using their actual logo. — It's dot com 03:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I just never thought of the H*R logo as the logo for THE SITE. But rather the logo for all that is Homestar Runner. The logo for Homestar himself perhaps. Which is why I thought aprorpiate to use it. I think of it more as a character's logo or the logo of the universe than just the logo for the site. I see what you mean, but I didn't really find it inapropriate.-- »Bleed0range« 04:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't help but muddy the waters, and I was bored, so I added my own idea for a logo (#21). Discuss and/or mock as you please. Trey56 08:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, a lot of new logos were added since I last checked the page. I viewed them all and read all the talk around the logo/no-logo sides, and I've got to support the no-logo side. 1. Personally, I think it looks better and the font is more consistent. 2. The full name of the wiki is shown: We're not the "h*r Wiki", but the "Homestar Runner Wiki". 3. All the legal reasons mentioned before me, and 4. We're a different site, being run by different people and therefor need a different logo.

That being said, I support logo 18 (nologo_blink.gif): It's different while staying similar to the old one and the blinking looks best that way. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 18:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This is fast becoming an expansive discussion. Instead of various lengthy opinions, which may take weeks to reach consensus, if any, perhaps some sort of poll is in order? — Lapper (talk) 18:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Even though this has already become a lengthy discussion, I think it's too soon for a poll. I feel that we are still in the creative process of finding a logo. Loafing 20:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm no image editor, but I'd like a logo that symbolizes the wiki somehow. --Trogga 20:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with E.L. Cool in that logo 18 looks the best. I think we should touch it up more and work on it a little bit (I'd like to see a different color for the text, maybe), but I think we're off to a great start. —FireBird|Talk 21:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the story behind the kamikaze style background that we currently use? Is there a story? It doesn't have much do with Homestar Runner, except its colors are common to the toon. If this just a case of "it's just always been that way", I'd like to deviate away from them. I there are a lot of other things that could appear in the background. I R F 23:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a similar style to the Intro... --ENUSY 23:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

1) I'd like to second the idea of thinking outside the box, although I'm too lazy to do any such thinking at the moment. 2) I don't want to start a side discussion, but I just wanted to mention that all the repetitions of "We're not the HR Wiki" remind me that, in terms of the URL, we are! I found the discussion three years ago in which hrwiki was chosen over homestarrunnerwiki. I was about to suggest at this point that we secure the latter, but someone in the Bahamas seems to have beaten us to it. 3) I just wanted to make it clear that, while I prefer long blink times to short, I actually prefer a long blink to none. —AbdiViklas 23:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And someone in California has homestarrunnerwiki.org. Wow. -- Tom 00:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Call me old fashioned but I prefer #3, possibly with some very scant blinking thrown in. - Joshua 02:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I made some more logos. I think we should go with #2 or #18, personally if you guys want to stay close to the way the logo looks but update Homestar. (#18 is my favorite of the two). What do you guys say?-- »Bleed0range« 05:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)