HRWiki talk:Subtitles/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Uh oh. 2 Now what? 3 Non-Working Link 4 Emphasis 5 Namespace 6 New version 7 Question about Strong Bad Emails 8 Sound Effect Standard 9 Welsh 10 Problems with IE 11 Adding Flash File 12 Links on individual pages 13 Capitalization, punctuation, and spelling 14 Loading subtitles... 15 Translation of Proper Names 16 Loading... Loading... 17 Quotes 18 Ordering in Namespace Listing 19 Frame count 20 100!

[edit] Uh oh.

Okay, I've got a serious problem with the Halloween Potion-ma-jig subtitiles.

The individual lines Homestar has at the end of the 'toon (A bottle of this, essence of that) are not stored through frame numbers. What's worse, I can't even say something like "A bottle of (something) water" or something like that, because different lines are different lengths, meaning I have to conform to whichever one is shortest or I get glitches. Thoughts?

The individual options work fine throughout the whole 'toon, and I suspect that the Homestar transformations work fine as well (though I haven't thoroughly tested.) --Jay (Gobble) 04:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ergh, yeah, that's the biggest problem, that we can only subtitle stuff that actually correlates to frame numbers. If audio is triggered by ActionScript independently from graphics frames, we're doomed. The same goes for sequences that are loaded separately, such as the Experimental Film Commentary or the Very, Very Little Girl easter egg. I'll have a look at that, and I'll get back to you ASAP. Loafing 05:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the problem wasn't what I thought it was, and all known kinks are worked out. HRWiki:Subtitles/en/halloween2005mx. And with that... good nighzzzzzz... --Jay (Gobble) 07:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The updates caused some formatting issues I don't like. Most specifically, anything italicized becomes mashed together with the surrounding words likethisappears. Plus, when Homestar is dancing and Bubs is saying "Stick and move, stick and move", I originally put them on separate lines - when they appear as they do now, they look as though they're being said in turn rather than at the same time. --Jay (Gobble) 17:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Patience grasshopper, for the best things come to those who wait. By "best things" I mean "the Greasemonkey version of the subtitles" and by "wait" I mean "until you see that both of these come out correctly in that version" - "Stick and move" is on its own line, spaces around italics aren't destroyed, it actually pulls the XML stuff from the wiki itself, rather than this just being here for show, etc. I'm still working out some of the kinks (like it working perfectly for me, but failing silently without even an error message for someone else... yeah, that's just a kink), but expect at least a work in progress by tomorrow or the day after or so. --phlip ^T_C 18:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Now what?

Sbemail 6 is all good to go, but what now? THe page doesn't say. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  05:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't think anybody would come this far ;-) Put it on http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php/HRWiki:Subtitles/en/sbemail6, and then I'll copy it over to the external site. :-)  Loafing 05:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

All up and running :-) Is the Klingon version next? ;-)  Loafing 05:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya, you just sit there and wait for that one. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  05:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to add other languages to HRWiki:Subtitles/Characters... xml:lang="x-klingon", I think is the right way... --phlip ^T_C 06:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it seems Klingon is registered with IANA, so the language code would be xml:lang="i-klingon"... it's even the example for i- language codes on this page... --phlip ^T_C 07:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Working Link

The link to the subtitle page doesn't work. Just so you know. --TotalSpaceshipGirl3 14:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes Loafing's site is down. Wait a couple of minutes and it will be up and running. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 15:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a free hosting site, so we get what we pay for. It will all be better for Firefox users once Phlip has incorporated the subtitles into his Greasemonkey script.  Loafing 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

At the meantime I added a mirror from my small wiki. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 19:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emphasis

I'm having a problem with the emphasis codes. Whenever I add them, they italicize the text fine, but remove the spaces directly around the word. I tried <i>, <em>, and <strong> tags. - Joshua 19:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Read my post above. --phlip ^T_C 19:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

One workaround is to use &amp;nbsp; to force a space. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  00:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Namespace

It looks like there's gonna be a whole website's worth of these pages, so to keep them organized, I made the Subtitles namespace. I didn't move anything into the new namespace yet, first because I didn't know whether anything depended on the pages' being where they are now, and second because I can see arguments for the primary organization being by language (e.g. Subtitles:en/cheatar, Subtitles:en/ween03) or by toon name (e.g. Subtitles:chetar/de, Subtitles:chetar/en) and figured we should discuss it first. (By the way, true subpages are enabled for this namespace.) — It's dot com 00:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at this Category:Subtitles, I believe that it makes sense to organize it by toon name. Loafing 07:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, can I add, since we're moving stuff anyway... can we have the names match the filename of the .html file, rather than the .swf? It's easier to code, that way. --phlip ^T_C 09:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me. Then we need to put the swf filename back in the <transcript> tag for the external script.  Loafing 09:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I made subcategories for the various languages, since all the pages can be seen just by viewing the list of pages in the namespace. — It's dot com 15:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New version

Go to HRWiki:Subtitles/Greasemonkey and install that... instructions are at the top. Be aware that this is just a beta... there's probably problems with it, and the (nonexistant) options interface isn't all that user-friendly. But it's there... now you can stop complaining about the old version not liking the formatting changes... --phlip ^T_C 06:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Jorb! I strongly recommend that everybody installs the Greasemokey script, because it actually uses the up-to-date subtitles from the wiki. The script on the external site has been updated somewhat as well, to fix the bugs mentioned in the previous sections. Loafing 07:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Strong Bad Emails

When Strong Bad reads his email and types on his computer, are subtitles necessary? --Trogga 14:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  14:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? --Trogga 14:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Because he doesn't always say what's on the screen. Look at the helium email for example. There are a few subtle differences between what he types and what he says. Check it out. Also, I remember watching an early one on the other site with captions, but with no sound. The email text wasn't captioned. But a comment he made in the middle of reading was. Now, if i had never seen this one before, how would I know where that comment referred to? In fact, with no captioning, how would I even know Strong Bad was reading out loud? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  14:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

And another reason I just thought of - the English ones are templates for the foreign language versions. So having that in there makes it easier for a translator to simply translate the text without having to find new frame anchors for the text. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  20:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sound Effect Standard

What sound effects should be noted, and how should they be noted? One example is The Paper. My opinion is to not indicate the sound, as it's really not meaningful to the storyline at all. Even in toons like little animal The Paper's noise isn't as meaningful as what it looks like. Also, are we using Geddup Noise for the chair? Will we change to Chairscoot somewhere around email 84? Finally, we clearly don't need to note EVERY sound effect. Just the ones that are part of the storytelling, I'd say. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  14:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. We should assume anyone using the subtitles cannot hear anything at all (and not necessarily because they're deaf; perhaps they're at work and can't turn the sound up). We should therefore caption all sound effects (unless in a particular case doing so would interfere with the dialogue), especially ones like "Preeeow", which signify events in the email. — It's dot com 19:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Assuming a person is deaf, then is there value in describing to them, for example, that the background noise sounds like a scratchy record? I think there's such a thing as too far here, and it's really easy to hit the point of so much caption that you can't keep up.

Also, if you were blind, the sound "Preeow" would be important, but you know that the Preeow is happening even with the sound muted because you see it come down. We have to indicate a ringing phone because we sure can't see it ringing, but we can see The Paper come down, so what does the sfx "Preeow" add to the subtitling other than clutter? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  19:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, you don't have to assume someone is deaf. The sound could just be muted. Noting all sound effects are important, because the toon wouldn't be the same without them. And how do you know that a person who now is deaf doesn't know what a record scratch sounds like? As for clutter, the "preeow" is usually the only thing going on at that point. It would not be cluttered to include it. In fact, when you watch the toon without the sound, you don't assume that The Paper is making any noise just because you see it. — It's dot com 21:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. Sound effects are an important part of the cartoons, and we should include them in the subtitles. Also, anybody who really doesn't like them, can turn sound effects off when they use the Greasemonkey script. Loafing 21:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I also agree: I think providing details about sound effects is often very important for catching all of the humor in a toon. About the example about The Paper, I think it's clear that this is one of many running gags in the H*R universe that adds to the experience because of its frequent appearance. Including the sound effect is the only way that a deaf, etc. person can share in that. Trey56 21:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Qermaq. It would probably be better to show most, but not all sound effects. Otherwise, those who are deaf, or have his or her sound off, possibly missing important parts of the plot through clutter or the caption text moving too quickly. I don't think every sound effect is necessary when writing captions. — Lapper (talk) 21:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I like including the sound effects, I think it definetly adds to the experience. -- Tom 21:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think many sound effects are notable, mind you. I guess I just question the semantic point of giving a sound effect for, say, The Paper when it conveys no meaning. In one transcript I did (anything) I didn't bother to note the scooting sound of the chair when Homestar sits, as it's meaningless (and it isn't a Geddup Noise, clearly!) - but when the sound effect is important to the plot, of course it should be noted. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  21:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welsh

I can make Welsh subtitles if anyone's interested. Strong Sader 17:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. The subtitles don't show on my computer because it rejects the "<br>" in the code.

Are you using Firefox? Did you install Phlip's scripts? And there should not be any <br>'s in the transcripts, they should be <br/>'s. If one is wrong, add the slash to the XML and try again. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I have Internet Explorer, and I've saved the All-in-One scripts. Strong Sader 17:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

All-in-one works with IE? Really now? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  17:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It didn't, I was just telling you my situation. Strong Sader 17:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but the subtitles not showing, as you said above - on all of them? None work for you, when viewed in Firefox? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  18:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with IE

My computer screen currently reads:

The subtitles file has been found unsafe for the following reasons: file contains tags in CDATA note 'br'x5

anyone else have this problem? -- Super Martyo boing! 18:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)P.S. replace ' with < or > respectively. Now it says it x40

On what page do you get this error? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I went to the BETA page and clicked 'watch' and the computer came up saying this. -- Super Martyo boing! 18:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Try the depressio watch link. I know there's no br's in that one. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  18:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That works. Still, we need to fix the ones that say 'br'. -- Super Martyo boing! 18:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here's the thing. If you run Phlip's scripts in Firefox, Firefox gets the transcript from the wiki. However, that old beta site runs off its own copies, and some of them are really old and not up to standards. If you could list the ones that are buggy, then Loafing could at some point fix the problem. And be sure, when using a line break in a transcript, to always use <br/>. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  18:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

After a check of the XML files for both depressio and 3 times halloween fun job (the one i tried earlier), I discovered that there are 'br /' in 3 times halloween fun job that the computer reads as just plain old 'br'. depressio doesn't have any 'br /' or 'br's. What I think we should do is just get rid of the 'br /' and see how the subtitles run without them. -- Super Martyo boing! 18:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You and me edited it at the same time. Weird.

Anyway, I'll try to come up with a list. -- Super Martyo boing! 19:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

After testing for a while, i've noticed that all of the ones with the error/bug still work if you wait for a while. -- Super Martyo boing! 19:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't spend too much time over this, it's already being fixed! The problem with the CDATAs will go away soon, as we don't use them anymore in the new format. I am currently moving all subs from the external server to the wiki, and within a day or so, the problem will have fixed itself. Also, Super Martyo, I'm curious which IE version you are using. That's a very interesting warning it spits out. Loafing 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Too late. I have a list sitting right next to me. I did learn something, though. Stand-up does not work. -- Super Martyo boing! 19:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Super Martyo, I'm curious which IE version you are using. That's a very interesting warning it spits out.

I don't know what version i'm using. can someone tell me how to find out? -- Super Martyo boing! 19:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Help -> About - Qermaq - (^T/C)  19:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Gah, "stand-up" really doesn't work. I'll have to look into that after school.  Loafing 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

IE Version 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519 -- Super Martyo boing! 01:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Flash File

Ok, I know it's not "later" yet, but re: <transcript xml:lang="en-us" file="flashfile.swf" width="550" height="400">, do we need to edit all the transcripts to add that now? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please. The Greasemonkey script will work fine without them, but the external script needs them.  Loafing 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links on individual pages

Should the only actual subtitle link be to an external site? Perhaps a link "Configure Mozilla Firefox to view this toon with subtitles" leading to Phlip's Greasemonkey All-in-one script should appear first, then the external link "View subtitles in Internet Explorer" later. And what about Opera? They have a healthy chunk of the market too. Does the external site work on Opera? If not, can it be configured to? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There are two subtitle links. One is to the external site that displays the subtitles under the Flash file, and the other one goes to the subtitle script in the Subtitles namespace. The subtitle script eventually leads to the page that tells people about the GM script. Yes, it's not that obvious. I could have the external script detect the browser and tell people that they should use the GM script, if they attempt to view the subtitles in Firefox. I'd prefer that to adding many how-to links on every toon page. As for Opera: yes, it does work. I've just tested it with Opera 9, and it works just fine. Loafing 09:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There should now only be internal links to the subtitles scripts on each page. The template included in each subtitle script now provides a brief explanation of how to view the subtitles. It points to the GM script and also automatically links to the external viewer as an alternative. Loafing 10:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization, punctuation, and spelling

We should standardize the capitalization and punctuation for the subtitles (like we do for the TGS transcripts). That is, we shouldn't use an emailer's bad capitalization and punctuation. And we should spell things exactly as Strong Bad (or whoever) pronounces them, not necessarily how they're typed. For example, on huttah!, we wouldn't put "Lasko, Milwaukee, WI"; we should put "Lassss-kohhhh" (or similar), "Milwaukee, Wisacondasin". — It's dot com 21:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Very yes. Loafing 21:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree on both counts. I used "buh-heend" in Subtitles:sbemail88/en, which I took right from the transcript where we describe how Strong Bad pronounces it. -- Tom 21:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely as well. (Well, except for how to spell Lasko, as that make makes it look like Strong Bad's spelling out the word. :P) We'll have to go through some of the already transcribed emails though, I think. — Joshua (Talk | contribs) 22:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC) (left unsigned)

Heh, that's funny: I noticed what you just said and fixed it above before I read your comment here. (For those reading along, I had originally put "L-A-S-K-O", which looks like "el ay ess kay oh".) — It's dot com 22:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loading subtitles...

I was watching a toon in German (what fun!) and it was weird to see "Loading subtitles..." in English. Can this be translated for the various languages? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  01:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure it can. But where to stop? Should the menu options be internationalized as well? The error messages? The help pages that haven't been written yet? I think you do raise a valid point: If we make the Flash cartoons accessible for more people, what's they use if they don't understand the tools that are required to view the subtitles. On the other hand, this will make the whole system more complicated for us. We'd have another XML document that translates the user interface, similar to Subtitles:Characters. What do you think, Phlip? Loafing 02:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Where to stop indeed. Aside from the pure titillation value, we're doing this for accessibility, and accessibility should be the goal. There's not a job worth doing that's not worth doing right, and if we aim to make H*R accessible to people who cannot comprehend audible English speech, we must do the job right and see to it they actually can; otherwise, all our efforts are wasted. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  02:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree in principle. But nothing in this world is perfect, and we have to compromise at some stage. In the end, it comes down to how much work we are able/willing to invest in this, and I would like to remind people that Phlip and I have to program every little change into the two subtitle viewers. So whoever demands new functionality is more than welcome to submit the suggestions as a Javascript sample ;-) But seriously, internalization of the two viewers is probably not that complicated, but will take some time to implement, since the code has to be changed wherever text is presented to the user. And as I said, we have to discuss the scope of internalization. Even if the two viewers are internationalized, how do people who don't understand English know about them? How do they know about H*R in the first place? I think for now, we are already doing a good job at making the cartoon available to an audience that have problems with spoken English, or understand some written English. We're still trying ot get kinks out of the system, and I think we should focus on making the basics work first — while looking ahead to complete world domination, of course ;-)  Loafing 03:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: Yes, I think we should do that. Later on. Or sooner, with more developers involved. And we have to know what scope the project should have.  Loafing 03:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought about doing this, and decided against it. Some notes: currently, if subtitles are turned off, the script doesn't hit the wiki. At all. For anything. The languages list is only loaded when you turn the option on, the subtitles themselves obviously only load if it's turned on. Everything else is self-contained, to save on hits to the wiki. And then the question of i18n comes up. To put the translations on the wiki would mean that everyone hits the wiki when they're using the script, not just the people watching with subtitles (which I'm guessing is a smaller group). Yes, it's cached, but it would still mean an increase in usually-unneeded traffic. And the script would fail completely if the wiki was down (sure, it could degrade gracefully to English, but it would take time for it to do so, 'cause it would have to wait for timeouts from the wiki server). The alternative is to just include the translations in the GM file itself, which would solve all of that, but it would make it much harder to add new languages later (users would have to upgrade every time a new language was added). As for the slightly smaller scope of just translating the "Loading" message, there's the same issue... if the translations are in the script they're hard to add to, and if they're on the wiki... do you want a "Loading translations of "Loading subtitles" message..." message? Should it be translated? You see where I'm going with this... To have "Loading subtitles" appear only after it had loaded the translations would be weird (and potentially confusing, especially if the wiki was down), to have it say "Loading subtitles" in English and then change to the other language after the translations are loaded would be even weirder... I can't see a way for it to work cleanly. --phlip ^T_C 04:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to note: I never intended this to be a "can you get this done by tomorrow?" kind of thing. Certainly the limitations of the code weight in here too. Still, this would not be a terribly bad future aspiration, y'know? Using this as a stepping-stone toward a later stand-alone caosed-captioning Flash player. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of Proper Names

So, for the non-English subtitles, the general trend so far has been to translate proper names. This leads, for example, to a replacement of "Strong Bad" with "Stark Schlecht" for German subtitles and to a replacement of "Homestar" with "Étoile de Logis" for French subtitles. Should we be doing this, or should we leave the proper names as they are. For example, if my name happened to be "Hunter Smith" and a French newspaper was talking about me, they wouldn't change my name to "Forgeron de Chasseur". For a better comparison, the French don't translate Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny.

So, maybe this doesn't matter much — and maybe we keep doing it the way we're doing it because it's fun to find amusing translations of names into other languages. After all, the likelihood that hordes of non-English speakers are going to suddenly begin appreciating Homestar Runner as a result of our efforts is scant. I just thought it would be good to get a firm decision on the table early on in the game.

Finally, to muddy the waters further, there are some proper names that probably should be translated no matter what. For example, from Where the Crap Are We?, I think that "Senator Pencilface" should be translated as well as possible (something like "Le Sénateur Visagedecrayon" in French, for example). What do you all think? Trey56 08:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Regular names, like "Larry Paloroncini" - no need to translate. This question was faced a long time ago in another Internet-based project. Descriptive names like "A Little Girl" should be translated, of course. Most names in H*R (including his own) fall into the vast grey area between. Some like Bubs and Marzipan should be no more than transliterated phonetically, if that. A name like Caleb Rentpayer could be left alone, or the last name could be translated to the local word for "rentpayer" if the result at least resembles a possible name, as in English. Then we get to Strong Bad whose name is both descriptive and simply nominative. But, it started out as descriptive. Comparing it to Mickey Mouse isn't apt: Mickey's name tells us no more than this is a mouse named Mickey, while "Strong Bad" conjures up important expositional imagery. When the meaning of the words in the name contribute to the viewer's interpretation of the character, whether literally, figuratively, ironically, or otherwise, the name probably should be fully translated. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  09:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think those are some great guidelines. Am I right in interpreting, then, that you might translate "Runner" but not "Homestar"? Trey56 09:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This would mean that we'd get Denglish names such as "Homestar Laeufer", "Strong Schlecht", "Strong Traurig" etc. for the German translation. They do have a certain charme, and they are somewhat more compatible with the English versions. While combinations with English words work well in German — done right, it's even "cool" — I'm not sure if that's equally true for all languages. It might even be regarded as ridiculous. I suggest that the translators for each language decide on how they want to do it, based on the suggestions collected here. Then Trey can use names that he doesn't find ridiculous, Elcool can feel good about his Hebrew translations, and I can drive the protectors of the German language crazy with the latest Denglish creations ;-)  Loafing 05:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you brought up the Mickey Mouse example, Trey: Most Disney names are actually partially translated into German. For example, Mickey is called "Micky Maus", while Scrooge McDuck is called "Dagobert Duck". Interestingly, "Goofy" is still called "Goofy", although most Germans don't know what it means. I still find it irritating when I read about Disney stuff on the web, because all the names are wrong! So yes, from my experience, I would prefer the main character names to not be translated. Here's an interesting link for Mr. McDuck's international pseudonyms. Loafing 09:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Trey56 09:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, I don't translate proper names, but use a phonetic translation. I always hated how some Hebrew translators translated "lightsaber" to the actuall (two) words for light and saber. They even did it for "Skywalker". I told myself that if I ever started translating anything, I would not repeat that same mistake. So "Strong Bad" in Hebrew is still "Strong Bad" while "Little Girl" is "Yalda Ktana". Other names, like "Micky Mouse" are not translated here. — Elcool ^(talk)_(contribs) 17:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Consider this: "Strong Bad" is more than a name, isn't it? It's the essential exposition of his character! He perceives himself to be strong and bad! So why not, in this one case, use the adjectives "strong" and "bad" as his name? There may be cases where in a particular language it would be awkward, but all languages have accomodations for awkward names, don't they?

Homestar Runner is another, though let's examine it. Runner is obvious. Homestar is a combination: "home" refers not to a house, but to one's locality, and "star" not to a glactic fireball but to a hero or achiever. These names, if translated in that light, help to expose the character and set up the resulting humor.

Now let's move to "Da Huuuudge". Can we translate this? Does "huuuuudge" means anything in English? As perhaps the longest-active English speaker involved in this wiki, I assure you it means nothing. I have heard theories about it meaning this of that, but "huuuuudge" means nothing. So what do we do? We transliterate. We achieve the word sound.

Is the US President Bush known as El Presidenta Arbusto? No, his name is not translated. Neither should any characters, unless the meaning of the name really expresses the essense of the character. Which should be thought of as rare. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  05:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I kinda regret translating Homestar's name into Spanish, seeing that he still calls himself (or at least his website) "Homestar Runner" when speaking Spanish. On a related note, does anyone know why The Cheat remains The Cheat (sort of) in other languages? --Trogga 07:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe most langauges don't have an exact equivilant for "The Cheat"? Swedish doesn't appear to. —Shwoo 07:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, as a native German speaker, I believe that the translation guidelines for each languages will be different. It's impossible to create universal guidelines. E.L.Cool for example transliterates and translates names into Hebrew, while I would not translate names into German. Even the ones that have a meaning, such as Strong Bad or Homestar Runner. This is because most Germans speak at least a little English, and virtually everybody will know what "bad", "sad", "home" "star" etc. means. It would also look very "uncool" to translate those names. In a quiet moment, I'll change the character names on our character list back into English. As for cases such as "Da Huuuuuudge", I would probably not transliterate, since I'm also not translating the other names. In short: Translating/transliterating names will have to be discussed separately for each language, and native speakers will know best how it's usually done in their language, and how it's best understood by other native speakers. Loafing 07:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not native, so I can hardly claim to have the authority Loafing has in German, but I can say I would do the exact same thing as he if I were translating into German. If I were translating into Chinese (which I'm not yet ready to do; maybe someday), it would be a very different story for a number of reasons (for example, Chinese characters can only produce a certain number of sounds, English is not as widespread among Chinese speakers, etc.). The point being that Loafing is right in suggesting that it the names really need to be decided on a language-by-language (maybe even name-by-name) basis. Ideally, we should have native speakers at least review our choices. Heimstern Läufer 07:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What I'm gonna do for spanish subtitles (Native = Very Yes) is NOT TO CHANGE THE CHARACTER'S NAMES!!!!! I mean, it sounds truly foul to say Casaestrella Corredor. I mean, my skin goes all creepy just to say H*R's name that way. So, no. I wish to verify (And if usefull, change) all the subs in spanish and let the names be UN-literall-translated.

Some examples are: Homestar Runner, He is Homestar Runner, His name is Homestar Runner; The King Of Town, he is the King Of Town, his name is unknown (Though it might be King Of Town), his job is being the King Of Town. AHA! JOBS! If we're speaking of jobs, then translation = literal. So the KOT would be (Not Rey de (la) ciudad) "Rey Del Pueblo". Little Girl is the little girl (Niña Pequeña). Strong Bad is one of the Brothers Strong (Name Unchanged). Coach Z is a coach (I'm in a debate of puting either "Coach Z" or "Entrenador Z"). The Cheat is a Cheat (But his full name has the Integral Article, so, no name-change). And so on...

What I'm saying, is that you can change the name if you're talkin' 'bout jobs, 'k? (Man, I should start calling 1-800-APOSTROHOLIC right now). Darkangel 16:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to comment on this issue. First off, again welcome to the wiki Darkangel and Tehleet. Thanks for helping with the Spanish translations. I do not have a great deal of time to go over all the translations myself. However I would like to raise a few points. First, I agree with Darkangel, "Casaestrella Corredor" does sound pretty bad to a spanish speaker (you kinda get used to it), and I do beleive that at least in Spanish, we should keep all the character names in English. I believe most TV shows also do this (with some exceptions -- I think the Simpsons call Homer "Homero" do they not?) So the decision I guess is generally up to the translator, but since this is a group project consensus must be reached (in writing). Like I said, keeping the titles in English I think would be a better idea. For example, the KOT's current name "Rey de la cuidad" sounds more like "King of the City" rather than "King of Town", but "Rey del pueblo" isn't that much better since it can both mean KOT and "King of the people", the latter being the one most people would associate with first. I had considered that myself last week and for that reason left it alone in the character names page.

Of course, doing so wouldn't just mean changing the aforementioned Character names list, but also the text of every spanish subtitle written. Which is why I haven't tried undergoing such a feat myself. So I think, like I said before, consensus needs to be raised on this issue, and I beleive that it should be done on a per-language basis. For some languages it may sound okay to translate names, for others it might not. Also, per-language editing guidelines might be useful, as some translations were left with some errors that can easily be avoided (and are time consuming to identify and fix). Some language guidelines might help (probably mostly written in English, as ironic as it may sound). It is possible other language translations might benefit from such guidelines as well. General translations can be easy, but proper translations that try their best to convey the right meaning can be a lot of work. I would like to try to reduce that work through collaboration. --Stux 02:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Are there any forums in Spanish (or any of our supported languages) about Homestar Runner where we could see how native speakers handle the names? My feeling is that proper names should be translated where it would give a better understanding of the character; using that standard, the King of Town's name should be translated, since Rey del Pueblo (or de la Ciudad) gives useful information, and the character is referred to as the king of the town (whether or not it is a self-appointed title and whether he has any actual power are other matters not for discussion here). Furthermore, the Brothers Strong's, Homestar Runner's, Coach Z's, the Poopsmith's, and The Cheat's personalities are all derived from their names. It therefore does make sense to translate them, if a suitable translation can be agreed upon. — It's dot com 17:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking about detranslating some of the Spanish names back into their official English versions, seeing that most of you seem to prefer them not translated. --Trogga 22:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Loading... Loading...

I've finished the subtitles for sbemails 52-57 and 60, but when I try to test any of them, it says "Loading". It never does load nor does it need to because I'm using the testing setting. I'm using the latest version of the Greasemonkey script. —Zelinda 17:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I seem to have this same problem all the time... (namely with virus's transcript at the moment) - Joshua 03:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Check to see if your XML is properly formed. Are all tags closed? Save the entire XML code (from the doctype to the closing root tag) as an XML file and open with a modern browser, it should either display the XML or point out an error. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If there's an error in the XML file, it should tell you about it (if you're using the test area in the GM script). If it sits on "Loading" forever, it's either having trouble loading the Characters page, or there's a bug in the script. Go Tools→JavaScript Console, clear it and reload the H*R page. If anything appears in the console (other than "junk after document element" and a piece of rando.xml, which I know about) tell me about it - it means there's probably a bug in the script. --phlip ^T_C 05:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

What's wrong with using quotes when SB is reading an email? --Trogga 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing, as far as I know. It is a quote. What's the consensus on this as far as a standard? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) ADD: Joshua reverted based on admin edit. First, I disagree. While It's Dot com is a cool guy, he's just a regular user outside of enforcing the consensus of the wiki. He erred, I believe, in reverting those quotes. Big deal. Let's decide now.

It is better to use quotes, as this clearly shows that SB is reading an email instead of commenting on it. We should definitely use them. Loafing 03:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Normally I'd be fine with it, but on many occassions Strong Bad does not directly read the email as it's written. Sometimes he adds things in the email (not even close), and sometimes he reads things differently than they're meant (walrus association). Consistancy is key, and I don't think we should put quotes around them when Strong Bad doesn't directly quote them all the time. - Joshua 03:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

But the viewer needs know that SB reading an email, indirectly or not. --Trogga 03:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suppose the obvious counterargument is that they can tell because they see the email on the screen. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not just stick a "{reading}" sound effect at the beginning of it? --DorianGray

Yes, I think (reading) is the best and most helpful solution. We should also use it if SB reads it the wrong way (as usual), because it describes best what he does. The mockery then becomes obvious if the reader compares it with the email from the Flash file. Loafing 04:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Number A, (reading) isn't a sound effect. :P Therefore I don't think it's very nessecary to be listed upon what is effectively written sound. I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that he's reading an email, as Qermaq pointed out. The "Dear Strong Bad" and name closing on most emails should give a clue to anyone who couldn't figure it out otherwise. Also, if we put (reading) down, it'd only make sense to put (writing) down as well. It'd get pretty messy. - Joshua 04:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

We don't just note sound effects. We also use (angrily) or (in a bad imitation of Marzipan) etc. I think it makes sense to note that SB is using his reading voice. He usually talks in a normal tone while writing his reply, so we don't need to use (writing). On the other hand, you are right about the danger of clutter, and these explicit mentions of moods or tones should be used only when it is important for the mood or understanding of the cartoon. Loafing 05:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Clarification: Of course these modifiers should not be noted as <sfx> elements, but included in the actual lines.

[edit] Ordering in Namespace Listing

What is the basis for the confused ordering in Special:Allpages/Subtitles:!? Should we also provide a category which would allow for more ordered ... ordering? - Qermaq - (^T/C)  03:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like plain ol' alphabetics to me. Reads in rows, starting with numbers, then capitals, then lowercase. --DorianGray

Can it be more obtuse, though? We have to read across the rows, not down the columns as one woul expect. And even if that were not an issue, it's going to be a rather complicated mess. Indexing will be needed. - Qermaq - (^T/C)  04:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It could start at the bottom, or go right-to-left... Things are never so complicated that they can't be made worse. =3 --DorianGray

If you want a nicer list than that, simply use Category:Subtitles. I also think that there is no real need to invest much time in creating an actually readable list of subtitles. A the rate that we're currently going, most cartoons will be subtitled soon, and eventually, these lists will only used by behind-the-scenes subber gnomes. We should simply link from each article directly to the relevant subtitels in the section See Also. In fact, we should start doing this right now. Loafing 05:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frame count

Is there any way to see the frame count BESIDES using philp's Greasemonkey script or a flash decompiler? Portable Firefox isn't working for me...--Color Printer 17:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess you could do a Google search for "flash seek bar"... ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 17:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My normal seek bar doesn't count frames... - Joshua 18:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and I can't find another that shows it. --Color Printer 18:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a JavaScript property for that actually, methinks. Ask Phlip about it. ¤ The Mü _{Talk to me.} 18:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

All my seek bar is is just a seek bar and a pause button. Where can I get a seek bar that counts frames, like this one? Religious Corn 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be Phlip's script. User:Phlip/Greasemonkey -- Super Martyo boing! 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 100!

We have one hundred English subtitles scripts! _{Well, O.K., some are still in progress as I write this, and then there are others, such as Subtitles:404error/en, but still.} Only ten days ago, we posted a little question if anybody would be interested in this. Wow, you guys and girls are fast! And for the records: we also have 1 Spanish, 3 French, 10 Hebrew, and 14 German subtitles scripts. You people rock! And there is still a long way to go to subtitle every cartoon, so "Rock, Rock On!"  Loafing 11:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For a currently less then complete "progress report", check out this thingy. - Super Sam 13:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we move that thingy to HRWiki:Subtitles/List. — It's dot com 16:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Loafing 20:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)