HRWiki:Projects/Toon Descriptions

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Contents 1 Toon Descriptions 1.1 Descriptions section appearance 1.2 Location of data

[edit] Toon Descriptions

Descriptions are currently being added to the top of email pages, but I don't know if that's the best place for them. They're not so important that they need to be listed alongside date and running time. (Especially considering TV Time Toons Menu descriptions have never been documented on toon pages. I think that should change, but that's another discussion for another time.) I would add them to the Trivia section (alongside YouTube and Podstar Runner descriptions), like so: *The [[Strong Bad Email menu]] description for this email is "X" Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 22:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

But it's a fact that now can exist for literally every sbemail, and most if not all toons. If we're putting them on the sbemail/toon pages anyway, I think having a dedicated space for them, not under "Trivia", is the way to go. Maybe not necessarily at the top, but not in "Trivia". --Jay (Gobble) 23:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Here are a couple of things that we will need to account for as we decide where and how to standardize this info:

• Most of the menu descriptions are identical to the description on YouTube, but some are different.
• Some of the YouTube descriptions are in the Trivia section, while some are in a YouTube Version section.

I think we should list the menu description, the YouTube description (if any), and the Podstar description (if any) together in a standard place, either in the upper area of the page or perhaps in a new Description(s) section above Explanations. If descriptions are identical, they should be combined and noted as such. — It's dot com 18:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I definitely support listing all the descriptions together on each page. I like the idea of a Descriptions section. That would also be a good place to note the hidden page descriptions that Gfd brought up. Lira (talk) 20:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, listing descriptions together is a good idea. Here's an idea I stole from User:It's dot com/replacement — I think it's a good way to include descriptions alongside the rest of the toon information without it being too intrusive. Then again, that would require drastically altering every toon page, so maybe a section in the Fun Facts is a better idea. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 04:36, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

I really like the look of that (naturally), but I think it's too ambitious for this discussion. I think we should focus on the simple task of adding the info to each page (putting them in their own section is seeming more and more plausible) and not jump into a massive site overhaul (not yet anyway). — It's dot com 04:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Nice job with the infobox Gfd. I also see that it's a little bit wider, allowing for more information and more space. I also do think it's a little early for a site overhaul and that implementing an infobox style layout merits serious consideration and discussion since we'd be drastically changing how we present information on the wiki. Also note there's already been some negative feedback on this matter before. --Stux 07:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. I should've clarified better: it wasn't quite a serious proposal as much as a mock-up of something I thought might be cool. It can't be feasibly implemented without months/years of discussion and editing. If it wasn't clear before, I support a Descriptions section in the Fun Facts above Explanations. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 20:27, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems like the consensus is that the best way to include descriptions on pages is in a dedicated "Descriptions" section in the Fun Facts, above Explanations. I have created two templates to help with this: {{description}} (which should contain the description of every toon) and {{descriptionslist}} (which creates a Descriptions section using the data from the first template). However, before these are implemented, there are still some potential concerns that should be addressed by someone more knowledgeable than myself.

{{description}}

This template returns a description for a specific toon: for example, {{description|title=dragon|youtube}} returns "Strong Bad teaches the world how to draw a dragon." It can be used to automate {{descriptionslist}}, among other things (see template page for more details).

My main concern is that if we include every description in one template, it might get excessively large. And I'm no expert on loading and caches, but having every single description transcluded on every toon page could potentially make pages load longer. I don't know how much of a difference that would make, but if it's significant, one possible solution is to split this up into multiple templates (and possibly split up {{descriptionslist}} as well).

It will also take a lot of work to list every description, but this isn't exclusive to the template, so it's not really a concern. The alternative is to manually add Descriptions sections to each page (assuming that's the plan), which would take an equal amount of work. Either way, we'll have to round up a ton of descriptions, and the only difference is that the template allows the data to be transcluded elsewhere (not just the Fun Facts). It's not a huge difference, so I understand if it's decided that this template is not worth keeping (especially if the template size will be an issue).

{{descriptionslist}}

This template uses the data from {{description}} to automatically generate a "Descriptions" section on a page, just by adding {{descriptionslist}} above Explanations (or wherever this section may go).

I can't think of any concerns regarding this template. I think it's useful enough to keep even if {{description}} is deleted, although it will need to be reprogrammed to allow manual entry. In this case, instead of {{descriptionslist}} automatically generating a list, it would work like so:

{{descriptionslist
|toons = Strong Bad plays old PC games so you never will! In this episode, it's the classic DOS collection FriendlyWare P.C. Introductory Set!
|youtube = Join Strong Bad as he plays old PC games. This episode he tackles classic DOS collection FriendlyWare PC Introductory set!
}}

Does anyone have any thoughts on these two templates? Are they perfect and should be completed and implemented immediately, or are they horrible ideas that should be deleted and never spoken of again? Or maybe even somewhere in between? Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 22:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I like this general approach. I can see the advantages of having the descriptions all in one place and then loaded into the page or the Toons page or whatever. I don't want to get too into the nitty-gritty of the format of the templates because I think we could possibly simplify them a bit with a parser function. I'm going to do some research on that and then report back when I can. — It's dot com 00:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I have gathered all (or nearly all) of the descriptions from the H*R source code, menus, and YouTube. Now I'm just trying to figure out the best format to upload it to the wiki. — It's dot com 05:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I've searched high and low to gather every description I could find and compiled the list onto HRWiki:Descriptions. I've temporarily protected that page while we verify and discuss the data. I used as much automation as I could when making it, so if you see something that's missing or wrong (especially if it's very wrong) please note it on HRWiki talk:Descriptions.

As for how we display them on pages, I think we're going to want simple labels (similar to how we do the page title at the top of the article) instead of the full sentences currently in the template above, because there are a number of descriptions with quotation marks in them (which are inconsistent). On each page, we could have a small link in the Descriptions section to a new Descriptions page where we go into detail about the different types. Also there are a few multi-line YouTube descriptions that I think we'll want to make collapsible.

But first, is the data right? — It's dot com 02:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

That's awesome!! Thanks a lot. I unfortunately don't have the time to verify every description right now, but I skimmed through the page and almost everything looks perfect. (I left a few minor nitpicks on the talk page.) Thanks for adding those old Games menu descriptions by the way, I forgot about those. I also hadn't considered how the format could be affected by quotation marks and line breaks. As you suggested, simple labels and collapsible multi-line text sounds like the best solution, and I'm excited for collapsible text to be implemented if we go that route. Tables are another potential solution, although they might be needlessly large and unwieldy, especially for regular one-line descriptions. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 06:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

So, if I understand correctly:

• HRWiki:Descriptions will eventually be moved to Descriptions?
• Each page will use some kind of template that will link to its section in Descriptions? (e.g. the article A Jorb Well Done will have a link to its [[Descriptions#A Jorb Well Done]])
• The actual content (descriptions) will not be included in the article itself?
• The {{descriptionslist}} and {{description}} will not be used?

I'm trying to get a sense for what the end goal will be here. Also, as mentioned earlier thank you very much for your hard work on this project Dot com and Gfd! --Stux 09:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• No, Descriptions will be an article about descriptions (as an idea, not the actual text): how they're used in the Homestar Runner body of work, and going into detail explaining the brief labels that we'll almost certainly want to use in other articles.
• Not exactly. I imagine there will be a small link to Descriptions in every relevant article, but only for the context and explanations mentioned above.
• The text of the descriptions will be listed in each respective article. Whether this is just plain text that we copy to each page or whether we use some kind of template or parser function is still TBD. My main goal this past week has been simply to get all the data in one place so that we can make better decisions on what to do with it, and HRWiki:Descriptions is currently serving as that repository. Whether it becomes a permanent repo or is just a temporary holding page before we break all the data up is also TBD. If it is permanent, its final form and location are TBD.
• Those templates will not be used in their current forms, but whether they will be used at all is TBD. A lot is still TBD.

The end goal is obviously to get the content into the articles, but as I mentioned above the intermediate goal for me has been just to compile all the data so that we can figure out what to do next. — It's dot com 16:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Now that all the data is compiled, we need to decide two things: (1) what do we want the actual Descriptions sections to look like, and (2) do we want the data to be centralized or split onto each page.

[edit] Descriptions section appearance

I envision a parser function that would turn this:

== Fun Facts ==

{{#descriptions:
source = toons = Crack Stuntman teaches kids about knife safety and how to have fun on spring break.
toons_flash = new_stuff = Crack Stuntman drops science.
youtube = Crack Stuntman delivers a two-pronged message about knife safety and spring break.
podstar_2006 = Crack Stuntman drops science and knife moderation. 
}}

=== Explanations ===
* This data is from [[An Important Rap Song]].

Into something like this:

Fun Facts

Descriptions

More info

• Page Source/Toons Menu: Crack Stuntman teaches kids about knife safety and how to have fun on spring break.
• Flash Menu/New Stuff: Crack Stuntman drops science.
• YouTube: Crack Stuntman delivers a two-pronged message about knife safety and spring break.
• Podstar 2006: Crack Stuntman drops science and knife moderation.

Explanations

• This data is from An Important Rap Song.

Here are all the codes that we need to fill in (feel free to edit this table as consensus dictates):

Code	Label
source	Page Source
email	Strong Bad Email Menu
toons	Toons Menu
toons_flash	Flash Menu
new_stuff	New Stuff
toons_old	Flash Menu Old
chinese_food	Chinese Food Menu
telebision	Telebision Menu
lava_lamp	Lava Lamp Menu
oldest	Oldest Toons Menu
scrolling_shooter	Scrolling Shooter Menu
scrolling_shooter_old	Scrolling Shooter Menu Old
second_games	Second Games Menu
original_games	Original Games Menu
youtube	YouTube
podstar_2008	Podstar 2008
podstar_2006	Podstar 2006
index	Index Page

Some of the labels as of this writing are a little long, and I don't love that, but this should get the ball rolling. — It's dot com 20:20, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me. But in the example above, I find the "Page Source" and "New Stuff" labels redundant. The toons menu and email menu both call the page source description, so if the descriptions are identical in every case, it shouldn't have to be noted for every toon. Likewise, the New Stuff description is identical to the flash toons menu description is almost all cases, so not every toon on the New Stuff menu necessarily needs to be labeled as such. But even if we remove these labels, it should still be noted on Descriptions that toons and email descriptions come from the page source, and that New Stuff descriptions are usually identical to the rest of the toons menu. (And obviously, the "Page Source" label would be used for pages not on the toons or email menu, and "New Stuff" for toons with a different New Stuff description.)

I'm also uncertain of whether Podstar 2006 and 2008 should be labeled separately. In my original {{description}} template, I added separate codes for both Podstars, but only so the template would know which one to link to. I'm not super knowledgeable about how different both podcasts are, so I'm not sure if the years are relevant enough to be noted. Also, there don't appear to be any toons on both podcasts, so there are no instances where they need to be differentiated. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 21:49, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I could go along with not listing the Page Source label for things listed on the Toons menu and Strong Bad Email menu, as long as we had a note on Descriptions stating that the page source description was identical to the menu listing for every such page. We should still put source = email = <description> in our code just so that it's clear internally (because they're coded in two places: on the menu and each individual page, so there is the potential for them to be different; so far they're just not), but that can be suppressed on the output. I'm less keen on not listing the New Stuff label, because if it's not, you can't tell whether something that was on the Flash Toons menu was on New Stuff with the same description or simply not on New Stuff at all. There was no overlap between the Podstars at all, so I agree that we can probably leave the years off the labels (but not the codes) if we want.

You mentioned links. Should there be links on the labels? — It's dot com 01:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

In my mind, whether a toon was listed on the New Stuff or not isn't really relevant to the descriptions, unless it's one of the few cases where the New Stuff description is different. But I can see where you're coming from, so I'd be fine keeping the New Stuff label. And yeah, the labels should probably have links, although they're not strictly necessary since all the relevant pages will be linked to from the Descriptions page. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 22:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

[edit] Location of data

As much as I would like for all the data to stay in one centralized place and be transcluded onto individual pages, I don't think it's practical. There would need to be a really big advantage to outweigh several technical disadvantages, and right now I'm not seeing that. Moving the data from the current repo to each page should be no problem for The Cheatbot, so that's not a concern. (Removing existing descriptions that are currently on each page might be a chore, but that's true no matter what we do.) — It's dot com 20:20, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. Having The Cheatbot move the data to each page sounds just as convenient, without all the technical issues of transcluding everything.

(I'm assuming there's no way for The Cheatbot to find and remove specific lines on a page? For YouTube descriptions, you'd need to search for lines starting with "*The [[YouTube]] description for this toon/email is". Podstar Runner descriptions are a bit more complicated, as they're kind of inconsistent, but they're all along the lines of *The summary of/on/for the [[Podstar Runner]] RSS feed [for this video] says/reads/read") Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 21:49, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The Cheatbot (which essentially is a collection of scripts that when necessary uses an account to directly manipulate the database) can totally find and remove specific lines on a page. The question is whether we've been consistent enough with the descriptions currently on pages that a regex has a fighting chance of finding them. — It's dot com 01:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

I know this is a bit of a long shot but we could consider using Semantic MediaWiki to help keep data like this both "centralized" and "distributed". From what I've read it seems like it might allow us to keep the descriptions in each page (or on data source pages?) and query the data as needed. It would basically be like our own Wikidata (except we shouldn't need a whole separate wiki for this). Of course I'm sure implementing this is easier said than done and it might be overkill, but these past several weeks I've noticed our increasing need for this kind of data. --Stux 12:10, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

From what I can tell, YouTube descriptions are listed pretty consistently. Podstar descriptions are less so, but variation is minimal (and described above), so it shouldn't be too difficult to search for. All other description types aren't noted on toon pages (with some minor exceptions, such as the descriptions that have recently been added at the top of early sbemail pages). A number of descriptions will likely have to be removed manually whether The Cheatbot is used or not, but that number will probably be much less if The Cheatbot is used. Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 22:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

hey, can i go ahead and start adding these? I think the descriptions having their own section is a great idea, but we would have to move the Youtube descriptions TMBGLOVER 19:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Anyone givin me the clear? TMBGLOVER 22:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Not quite yet. There are still a few things that need to be sorted out. From what I understand, we still need to figure out:

1. The potential creation of a parser function as suggested by Dot com
2. The potential use of Semantic MediaWiki to keep the data centralized as recommended by Stux
3. Whether The Cheatbot will be used in adding the descriptions to each page

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc 22:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

1. Ok! I just think that this would be a really good idea. Maybe ask Tom? TMBGLOVER 23:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey juys. I know I haven't been able to work on this project in a while. I intend to change that this month. To address some of the above, yes I still think we should use a parser function, and yes I think The Cheatbot would be of great help, at least I hope so. — It's dot com 03:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I think The Cheatbot is a great idea, but I think that, 1. We should pass this by Tom, just to make sure, and 2. Before we use The Cheatbot, let the users do this first. Then in like a month we can let The Cheatbot do the rest. TMBGLOVER 00:06, 12 October 2022 (UTC)