Talk:Strong Bad Email/Archive 2

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Strong Bad Email Talk: Current | Messages 1-20 | Messages 21-33 | Messages 34-50 | Messages 51-75 | Messages 76-100 | Messages 101-120


[edit] An oddment

I was watching SBEmails. Then, I saw the flash file for ther menu. It still has the compy! Amy Whifflepoof

[edit] Chinese

Okay, what's with the Chinese writing? Iv'e never seen that on the wiki... Is it suppost to be there? Homestramy20 08:57, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Given that they were all added by an anonymous user to this and a couple of other pages all within an hour or so, and they're all links to commercial websites, probably not. --phlip TC 10:04, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Here's an answer for you: No Chinese allowed!

Here's an answer for you: No Chinese allowed! The 386

[edit] Newest Scroll Rap

Hey, did anyone notice that Strong Bad's head doesn't move while he is saying his latest email rap? Is this worthy to put on the page? «Rob» 10:39, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... It is a bit strange. Perhaps under 'remarks'. There are alot of places that do call for it within the rap. Thunderbird 04:54, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 36 1/2?

I noticed somebody replaced '? 1/2' to '36 1/2' for the Toons Menu Stu email. How do we know it's 36 and a half? Thunderbird 04:50, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template

I think that the sbemail articles (NOT the toons, articles), should have a template. Anyone agree? Rogue Leader / (my talk) 02:59, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean something in addition to Template:Strong Bad Email? If so, I don't think that is necessary. -- Tom 03:10, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
I mean for Statistics, length, place, ect. Rogue Leader / (my talk) 03:11, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
You're talking about converting the additional information section into a template and then putting it on all of those pages? ...Why not? Seems like a good idea to me. (Note: I'm not sure where all you were planning on putting the template, but I don't think it should go on the emails themselves, just on this page and the various specialty pages.) — It's dot com 03:17, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
No, that template won't go on to the emails themselves, just the information pages. Rogue Leader / (my talk) 03:34, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Well, it sounds useful, especially since there's nothing on those pages tying them together. I think you should go for it, at the very least so we can see it and make an informed decision. The worst that could happen would be that nobody likes it and it gets reverted, but the way you describe it, I think everyone will like it fine. — It's dot com 22:32, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
It looks like E.L. Cool went ahead and made a template, so I added it to the pages. I think the green was intended to match the Tandy, but maybe a different color would be better. What do you think? — It's dot com 05:08, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Haha.. I didn't even read this post! I thought that I was on a roll with The Cheat Commandos template and Limozeen one that I just went ahead and made it. And yeah, the green is for the Tendy, but you can switch it if you like. Elcool (talk)(contribs) 18:20, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)
I went ahead and added Strong Bad Email Statistics to the template. After all, it was a featured article at one point and I noticed that the article no longer linked to Strong Bad Email. —THE PAPER PREEEOW 02:08, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Hi, nice one. Forgot about in. Chack out Talk:20X6 for some debate if this taplate should stay of not. Elcool (talk)(contribs) 03:42, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spin-offs?

We mention a few spin-off toons and characters in the opening paragraph, but there's so many things on the site that Strong Bad emails created. Should we have a section on this page for stuff on the site that came from Strong Bad emails? - Camalex(talk) 03:28, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

That's a prooty good idea. - Joshua 11:47, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)
So, um, where should I put it on here? I don't think it's worthy of it's own article, is it? - Camalex(talk) 20:42, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Do TBC change the names of the users who send emails?

Topic on GameFAQS...

From: zztman5 | Posted: 10/3/2005 10:17:42 AM | Message Detail | #004
I sent that email. That exact same email, exact down to text and everything... with the exception of the name. They changed my name on it. What the ****.
what the crap/10

From: Alastor the Stylish | Posted: 10/3/2005 11:31:02 AM | Message Detail | #005
They always change the names on them. I thought everyone knew that <_<

Zuh? Is this true? I've never heard this... If so, should it be remarked somewhere?

What about montage? We know it was sent by a wiki user and TBC didn't change the name. Elcool (talk)(contribs) 20:47, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC)
I think it's real easy for someone to claim that on an off-topic forum. What kind of evidence does the original poster have, or for that matter the person who claims that "everyone" knows this? Every indication in commentaries and interviews that I've ever seen is that TBC leave an email exactly as-is, with the exception that they might trim it for length. Certainly most of the names and locations in the various emails are vague enough that TBC wouldn't need to change them, and I believe the Legal page gives them the right to use the submissions. Besides, where would the joke be if there was no real Dan and Linda, Monkeydude, Someone, or Anonymous Contributor? — It's dot com 20:56, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Yes, really. I think at least one of those guys is not being truthful. There's no proof to them, whereas the Brothers Chaps have always indicated that their emails are exactly the same, right down to the name (which, I suspect, may be one reason why they never use mine: coz they can't pronounce the name). There's a lot of proof towards what It's dot com said. Personally, I think it's just someone looking for attention. It's a lot easier to say they used your email and changed the name than it is to actually get your email answered. --DorianGray

[edit] DVD Redirects

Seen as we already have a numerical redirect to all the Strong Bad Emails, does anyone else think that making capitalised DVD redirects would be a good idea for all emails this is possible with (that is, all emails from Some Kinda Robot to Do Over, excluding Homsar, Pom Pom, Marzipan and possibly Interview) --videlectrix.pngENUSY discussionitem_icon.gif user.gifmail_icon.gif, 22:38, 17 October 2005 (BST)

I think it's already been done for a couple, namely Army and Impression. --DorianGray
I know this is a year and a half old, but I just wanted to mention that this is now done automatically. — It's dot com 23:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Actual sbemail program?

Would it be difficult to write an sbemail.exe program? I would like the "DELETED!" feature in my default mail client, but I also like the dos based look to it. What would be the best language to write it in? has it been done?

Agentjs03 15:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Erm, my guess is the best place to ask/check for that kind of stuff is the fan stuff wiki. I'd suggest browsing through the different categories to see if it's not already been done, if not ask there! Let me know if you find anything. Good luck! --Stux 18:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Something like Mutt perhaps? -- Tom 01:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Possible Poll?

Is there a way someone could make a possible poll to vote on the best email ever, it would be very cool...

Sorry, but this is a knowledge base. We aren't about polling people. Perhaps you could check out some of the polls in the forum? -- Tom 02:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] {{clear}}

I noticed Dot Com reverted my edit, here's why I put the clear up. On larger browser windows, the picture overlaps the top of the list, looking kinda goofy. Although the clear does make the page somewhat larger. Does anybody else have any opinions about the clear setting? Thunderbird 13:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, what resolution is this running at? Is it 640x480? Is the resolution shown in your pictures the resolution that you normally run your computer at? --Stux 15:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm guessing 1280x1024, based on where the text wraps. The overlapping didn't happen for me at that resolution, but then I realised - if you hide the TOC it does. Does the change I just made suit everyone? --phlip TC 15:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's very nice now, Phil. Thanks. — It's dot com 16:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Yeah, I have a big monitor, and I also like keeping text small to reduce scrollage. Sometimes the big resolution creates special problems for me. Thanks for fixing this one though, philip. (Oh, and I hate TOCs, I never display them) Thunderbird 01:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Navigation template

Note: This is a continuation of the dicussion originally started here.
This project's final status can be found here.

So I decided to be bold, but it appears I was a bit too bold. Anyway, check out the new navigation template at the top of emails 1 through 11, and comment here. The rationale for this is that it's very handy to be able to flash through a sequential group of items without scrolling down to the bottom of the page every time. My goal was a consistent navigation that keeps the "next" link in (usually) the same place on each page, to minimize the need to move the mouse. This would be useful when browsing email by email, perhaps to see what characters and places make an appearance in each, or perhaps just to read each synopsis. Such a thing would be very useful to me right now, for example, as I am trying to compile a little list of the most "important" emails so my wife can read them in order and get a feeling for overall chronology without reading all 130+ emails. — Bill 17:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Emails some kinda robot and portrait demonstrate the tweaked versions of the template for the first and last emails. Note that, for example, when email #140 gets released, portrait will have to be changed from the sbelast template to the sbe template, and the name and number for 140 will have to be added to it. — Bill 18:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comments about the presence of the template

I'm pretty neutral at this point, maybe a bit on the positive side. Thunderbird 18:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC) Actually, I'm leaning further positive, the more I think about it. However, with emails that are disambiguated, would the navigation template remain at the top of the screen, or go one line down? Thunderbird 18:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Go one line down. I don't think we want the Strong Bad email #X line to come before the disambiguation line. — Bill 18:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
The only other thing I can think of about the format, is that going forward is easy to just click click click, but going backwards requires moving the mouse around a bit every email. Can't really think of an easy way to fix it though, unless you put forward on the right side of the screen, back on the left side of the screen, and some form of a main title or number in the middle of the screen. What do you think of that? Thunderbird 18:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
As it is now, the template distracts a bit from the thumbnail image. My eye is expecting just an image to be there, clean and unobstructed, like we have in about 90-95% of our articles. See a few random articles to compare. -- Tom 18:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
What if the links were small and gray? As said: "It's more functional than aesthetic". Elcool (talk)(contribs) 18:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
That might help Tom's issue, but I wouldn't like the inconsistent formatting of hyperlinks. — Bill 18:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit conflict] The proximity to the image bothered me, too, but I accepted it as a compromise. Another possibility is to put the navigation inline; something like one of these, perhaps:
But I think I find that more intrusive than where it is now, above the (optional) image. Anyway, the fourth or fifth one is probably the best; in this context I'd be looking for a minimal footprint. — Bill 18:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
The 4th or 5th options could also take advantage of our sbemail3-type redirects, and we could then shorten the template to three simple variables. You could probably also manage a Greasemonkey script similar to this one to work like that too, if we end up not going with the template at all. Though if we do go with this template, I think I'd rather have the names than just the numbers. -- Tom 21:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I would do: [1] I think that it is an appropriate position for the navigationand does not take away from other things on the page. -AtionSong 17:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comments about the presentation of the template

Perhaps a different color, to make it stand out better? Thunderbird 18:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I dunno ... it's more functional than aesthetic. In fact, I didn't want to draw a lot of attention to it, since this is the top of the page. Part of the reason I flush-righted it was for the "next-link in the same place" goal, but another part was to remove it from the main text stream of the beginning of the page. — Bill 18:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
While you should never place form over function, I would still argue that they're both important.
Instead of:
Strong Bad Email #2 << (#1) some kinda robot | butt IQ (#3) >>
How about something a little smaller and self-contained:
Strong Bad Email #2
← [1] some kinda robot | butt IQ [3] →
It's dot com 18:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Fixing the width of the box on the right?
Strong Bad Email #9
← [8] brianrietta | trevor the vampire [10] →
Strong Bad Email #2
← [1] some kinda robot | butt IQ [3] →
 -- Tom 20:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I like where that is going (a lot, actually), with a few comments:
  1. Don't make the links too small; in my browser (with a medium text size), It's dot com's examples are pushing the limit of readability/aesthetics and Tom's examples have crossed it (the text is pixelpuky and the smallest arrows have turned into lines with a one-pixel "blip" on the top side). This might be a good reason to use << and >> instead of arrows.
  2. I wouldn't recommend fixing the width of the right-most box. You'll never be able to predict how wide it should be for all browser contexts without making it way too wide, and this really isn't necessary; the goal of "same x,y position" is most important for the "next" link (which will get far more use), and even with the size of the next link being variable, you can aim for sort of an "average middle" on the previous link and still not have to move your mouse very much. Click through the first 10 emails and you'll see what I mean. (And furthermore, since disambiguation lines introduce Y-axis variations, the whole "same x,y" goal will never be achieved 100%.)
  3. Let's replace the pipe symbol (|) with a cell border (although I'm sure my css below needs to be cleaned up!).
  4. Although I, too, began my templates without using number signs (#), I added them later because otherwise a number in parentheses looks more like a count than a designator, and I wanted consistency with the email # on the left-hand side of the same line.
So all that said, the following works really well for me:
Strong Bad Email #2
<< [#1] some kinda robotbutt IQ [#3] >>
or perhaps
Strong Bad Email #2
<< some kinda robot (#1)butt IQ (#3) >>
or even just
Strong Bad Email #2
<< some kinda robotbutt IQ >>
Bill 21:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I like this last version very much. — It's dot com 22:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robotbutt IQ
I also made one here of the simpler version but with arrows for comparison. I enlarged the arrows just a touch. — It's dot com 22:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Bill, out of curiosity, how much different is this version (from what you can see in your browser):
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robotbutt IQ
from It's dot com's directly above?
Here's a snapshot (at 100%). I still prefer the angle brackets, unless the arrows can be fixed up with a reasonable chance of looking good in various browsers at various resolutions. I'm using Firefox, 1280x1024, medium-ish text size, on both a laptop and a desktop, and the arrows look a bit clunky on both. However, I also realize I'm flirting with hypocrisy here, since the angle brackets look quite unsophisticated and I always advocate using the "real" version of a symbol (such as an em dash [—] instead of two hyphens [--]). Do we have escape sequences for solid triangles? Those might make for a good compromise. — Bill 16:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and consider whether we would want to use the same trick for Teen Girl Squad, Marzipan's Answering Machine, and any other reasonably sequential series of pages. We might want a separate set of templates for those others, since the page layout is slightly different from a Strong Bad email, but I'd think we'd want the nav boxes to look consistent. — Bill 16:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Could it be done like this:
Strong Bad Email #2
<< some kinda robothomsarbutt IQ >>

How's that look? -AtionSong 17:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I like it! — talk Bubsty edits 17:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Ationsong, I like your version the best, but what I like would be a full horizontal screen version of that, with the title in the middle, and then the forward and back buttons on the left and right. Thunderbird 21:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Bill, here's how it looks for me:
Another addition I'd like to get your opinion on is the following:
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robot watch butt IQ
I've been meaing to fix the transparancy of that image, but other than that, what do you think? -- Tom 21:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Honestly? I didn't know what it was for at first. Initially I thought "watch" meant "add it to my watch list." I guess I'm fairly focused on what I thought the navigation should do, and this seems like an "add-on" that doesn't need to be there. This nav system is all about rapid movement from one email to an adjacent email; dropping out to watch one of them doesn't need to be part of the "quickness" factor (for that I can easily hit the End key and click the normal watch link). — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Easily fixed by the suggestion below:
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robot watch homsar butt IQ
Better? -- Tom 17:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Note: Fixed transparancy. -- Tom 22:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
How about "watch email" or somesuch that indicates what you're about to watch? — It's dot com 02:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I think either "watch homsar" or "watch email" would work. -- Tom 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Even though people like my other idea, I had another one, and figured that there's no harm in posting it. It looks like this:

This integrates the "email navigation" template with the "strong bad email" template found at the bottom of every page. It still needs a little formatting work, but I think this solves the problem of where to put it so that it does not get in the way of other elements on the page. What does everybody think? -AtionSong 15:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
A good idea, but the whole point of the nav buttons was to avoid scrolling to the main template. Thunderbird 22:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Science! Er, I mean, "Exactly!" — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
And once you get to the big nav template, it's really not that hard to locate your place in the list (since it's a different color and bold) and just click on the next or previous email. (I fixed the template above to illustrate this.) — It's dot com 01:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Science!, again. — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I am going to implement Tom's most recent design (the one that reads "watch homsar") so that we can see whether we're close or whether we need to go back to the drawing board. — It's dot com 18:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I switched them on homsar and butt IQ. How do they look? — It's dot com 18:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It's just not clicking for me, for several reasons:
  1. Too disparate; what does watching the toon have to do with previous/next navigation?
  2. Too redundant; the watch/view links at the bottom of the page are only and End-button away, and offer more options. (The prev/next links are at the top to reduce scrolling, but this is a non-issue for a low-repetetivity action like watching a toon.)
  3. Too inconsistent; it makes me feel like we would need a little "watch" box at the top of every page that represents a toon. (Why would there be a watch box for butt IQ but not for Experimental Film?)
  4. Too imposing; the box is starting to take over the top of the page. Look how big it would get on different town:
Strong Bad Email #99
stupid stuff watch different town flashback
So, I advocate keeping this template slim, unimposing, and focused on its task.
Bill 20:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, maybe we should have a small watch button at the top of all toons. That's often the reason I go to the pages. — It's dot com 23:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Like Bill said, I too think the "watch" button is distracting where it is. But it is definitely a nice addition to have. How about this format which separates the two yet keeps the watch button handy? --Stux 04:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Here is a sample:
Strong Bad Email #3 (watch Strong Bad Email/Archive 2)
homsar homestar hair
Please ignore the "Strong Bad Email/Archive 2" misnomer. I kept the {{PAGENAME}} tag for simplicity. --Stux 04:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
It's a good attempt, but it still seems cluttery to me. And keep in mind that most pages (other than sb emails) have a different layout at the top of the page. Where would we put such a link on a regular toon or an answering machine page? If the benefit was significant, it would be worth working on the layout problem or accepting the clutter for the sake of functionality. But the benefit is quite minimal; if you're on this page to watch the toon, you can just press the End key and then click the "watch" link at the bottom of the page. Since most toons last at least two or three minutes, the extra time needed to hit End (or Page Down a few times) is negligible. — Bill 14:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Also keep in mind that if the PAGENAME template is used, email #100 will have to be hardcoded or will have to have its own special template. (That's one of the reasons I've not used that template in my examples).Some Dumb Guy Who ... Comes Around, And ... 14:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Uh, please ignore those stupid-type words I wrote up there. I guess I was thinking of the unusual filenaming on the HR site itself; the wiki pages, of course, are no problem. So, let me take back those stupid-type words and just say "Science, again!". — Bill 15:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Science! Lol! I love that skit. I think it's great evidence that Homestar is really an Idiot Savant of sorts. Case in point: "Strong Bad what are you doing? You mean doing?" ... "well they're spelled the same!"... Anyway, I digress. My example was meant exclusively for use with Strong bad emails and not for the generic toon template. However, you do make a good point about it being too cluttery and thought of this:
Strong Bad Email #3 (watch)
homsar homestar hair
or this:
Strong Bad Email #3 [watch]
homsar homestar hair
It's much more concise. Whaddya think!? --Stux 16:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh cwap — I just realized that my original comment about making an exception for email #100 was right, and my subsequent retraction was actually the stupid-type words. Anyway ... I still need an answer to the question, "so where do you put that link on every toon that isn't a Strong Bad email?". — Bill 15:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry about the email 100 exception: that's what exceptions are for: we can either subst: the template and hard code the necessary elements, or just substitute the number for "ahundred" since templates don't really care if you're putting in numbers or text. As for toons that are aren't SBEmails, please refer to my comment below (link to come) regarding the need for two separate templates: one for emails and one for the rest. If you like either of the current versions above (With parens or brackets) we should start applying them soon (after some sort of consensus of course), since having different and inconsistent test versions just sitting pretty. --Stux 16:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
BTW, the template above assumes dot com's format which is more concise as it requires less parameters. --Stux 16:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] further discussion

Well ... I still don't see a need for the redundant "watch" link, still don't care for the extra clutter, and still want to know what this will look like on a non-email toon before I can buy into it for the emails. I agree we need to pick a format and move ahead because right now we have at least three different navs on the emails (counting "no nav" as one of the three), so let's pick one without the watch link (for now) and make all the emails consistent. Then we can easily add the watch link to the template, if everyone likes it, after we figure out where it goes on a non-email toon. I can live with the version with the arrows, if that's the consensus. — Bill 15:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we do it like

previous email next email

or just

prev next

-AtionSong 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Why? We have to feed the name of each email to the template anyway (so it can generate the link), so why not display it for the user as well? I think it's helpful. — Bill 15:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Ever since this discussion began, I have paid attention to when I would use this template, and I just wanted to point out that several times recently I have wished for a "watch" button at the top and have been frustrated to have to scroll all the way to the bottom for it. — It's dot com 15:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure that's true ... but I'm also sure the same could be said about other kinds of things we could add to the top of the page. Any one feature, considered in isolation, would be handy. The question I have is, what features are most useful overall when we consider the opportunity cost of adding them, and what functionality is really gained for that price (for instance, when you say "scroll all the way to the bottom", I hear "press the End key", so (to me, anyway) it seems like the cost outweighs the benefit). For example, I am keeping my own local archive of the Flash files, so I would find it very handy to have the "view the flash file" link at the top of each page. However, considered relative to all the other things that could go at the top, and keeping in mind the clutter burden, I don't think that would be an improvement for the average wiki visitor. And, if we are going to add watch links to the top of every toon article, where do they go and what do they look like? I'm not adamantly opposed to them, but I am still waiting for somebody to answer these questions! — Bill 16:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict Well, given that I really don't want to be writing this paper I kind of volunteered to write... I went ahead and picked one template {{sbenav}} and applied it to the first 12 emails. I also did two other things: i applied that same template to the first email so it would wrap around. I also moved any disambugation templates below the nav template so that navigation would be "seamless". At least going forward. I removed the big watch link (i really didn't like it there) but did not add the smaller watch link I proposed above simply because it can be changed later (of course all pages that have the template will need to be refreshed). I agree with Dot com, I think having a link to watch the toon would be most helpful for those of us who like a little convenience. :)--Stux 16:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not adamantly opposed to them, but I am still waiting for somebody to answer these questions!
Like I mentioned before, I am focusing on one thing at a time. First let's take care of the strong bad emails for they have one format, and then worry about the other toons as they have another format (in this case there's no Strong Bad Email #XXX to piggyback links to watch toons. If we choose to have watch links by the SBEmails i'm sure that we can find a way to link them to regular toons. I see your point about us potentially including too much clutter, and yes we'll need to draw the line and I think it can be drawn right next to the watch button. I was thinking even that we could use a techinque I've seen been used in signatures:
Strong Bad Email #1 (w)
death metal homsar

It's smaller and a little less intrusive. --Stux 16:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, since my screen here is 800x600, and the sbemail template is so large, I have to hit "end" and then "page up" 1 or 2 times to reach it. so that's a whopping 2 or 3 extra keystrokes to get to it! =) --Stux 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
And couldn't you press End to get to the big navigation template, too? Now that I think about it, why would you need to advance through the sbemails so quickly that a link would be necessary at the top of the page? If someone is searching for something, it would seem to me that there are more efficient ways of doing that. On the other hand, I think a "watch" button would be at least as useful or more useful than navigation buttons. As for where they would go, we have a sample that combines the two ideas, and a similar template could be made for toons that would need a "watch" button only. — It's dot com 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I thought the nav template was proposed for navigation convenience? To browse through the emails one by one and just kinda look at stuff? I thought the purpose of this template was settled in dicussions above? I do agree though that the watch button is as useful if not more than the nav template. Q: Dot com, what did you mean by "we have a sample that combines the two ideas?" Speaking of discusion, I added a tag further down for ease in commenting. --Stux 16:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was settled, too. Anyway, if we're okay with the level of terseness used in sigs, here's another (minimalist) idea that combines the nav and the watch link:

Strong Bad Email #1    

You'll notice I had to cheat to make the text portion of the HR link disappear, and the cheat is apparent when you mouse over it. I assume that could be fixed. — Bill 17:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong Bad Email #2
watch homsar some kinda robot butt IQ
(Edit conflict) Stux: A template like the one above. Note that I switched the position of the "watch" and "prev" buttons. Does that help it any? The reason I questioned putting it at the top is that if you're going to be looking at the toon article in any depth, then you're going to be scrolling down away from the navigation template, and so it wouldn't be on screen when you needed it, and therefore you'd have to scroll to it no matter where it was, unless you were advancing through several sbemails in a row, which just didn't seem as likely to me. (And I know that that was a proposed use for the template, because way up there is discussion of relative X and Y values between different pages.) — It's dot com 17:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of useful information at the very top: a summary synopsis, the cast of characters, a list places, and usually a screenshot of a defining moment. It may not seem likely to you that somebody would want to quickly click through the emails, but it seems likely to me because I do it. One of the central ideas underlying the web is that not everyone wants the same thing, or wants to do it in the same way, so we provide different tools for differnt users. Some want to browse. Some want to search. Some want to follow a trail of hyperlinks. Some want to use a master menu as a base of operations. And some — or at least this one — want to click through sequentially. If I'm the only one who does, then by all means let's scrap the idea and go back to a cleaner page layout. Or add your extra watch links. I'm going to take a rest from the discussion now; it's already become too much work for the benefit and I don't have the energy to fight charges of uselessness when I thought the value of the navigation had already been established. I recommend removing the navigation from all the live pages and transplanting this discussion to someplace more central (since it has grown larger than just sbemails). If anyone else still thinks the previous/next navigation has value, then you can hash out the details and put it back in. But if it turns out I'm the only one, then I would have to concede that the usefulness is too narrow to make it part of the site. — Bill 17:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to have the whole idea scrapped. I merely was noticing that the recent examples were missing the "watch" link and was trying to get that put back in, reasoning that such a link was at least as important as the nav links. Obviously we two put different weight on the respective links. But I have no problem with having both if we're gonna have any. — It's dot com 17:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, all of the versions I posed had a watch button to them. I just didn't include them in the {{sbenav}} template due to the discussion at the time. The above revision is definitely better. I probably should include a list of what I consider to be current "candidates" (starting with the current version):
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robot butt IQ
Strong Bad Email #2
some kinda robot watch homsar butt IQ
Strong Bad Email #3 (watch Strong Bad Email/Archive 2)
homsar homestar hair
Strong Bad Email #3 (watch)
homsar homestar hair
Strong Bad Email #3 [watch]
homsar homestar hair
Strong Bad Email #1 (w)
death metal homsar

Strong Bad Email #1    

Strong Bad Email #2
watch homsar some kinda robot butt IQ

--Stux 21:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new thought

If I could wish any wish this holiday season, first would be the crap about the kids*, but second would be this: The ability to define an article as part of a named series. All such articles would be numbered to define the sequence within the series, and when displayed, would automatically get "previous" and "next" links in the toolbox, or above or to the right of the title, or someplace like that. Being a software developer, maybe I should look into what it would take to write a wiki extension that does something along these lines. — Bill 18:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Notice The following website is outside of and contains crude or vulgar language and/or content. Personal discretion is advised.
* Adapted from "A Holiday Wish" [2] by Steve Martin on Saturday Night Live.
I think that sketch is hilarious and wish I could see it again. — It's dot com 18:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] genericity of the navigation

Some more examples to chew upon:

Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 2.0

Version 1.0 Version 3.0

The King of Town unsuccessfully tries to deliver an invitation, Pom Pom talks crazy talk, and Detective Everybody reports that Homestar Runner is dead.

Good for screening calls

Cast (in order of appearance): Marzipan, Strong Bad, The King of Town, Pom Pom, Homestar Runner

. . .

Teen Girl Squad Issue 8

Issue 7 Issue 9

The girls join the Battle of the Bands.

Kissy Boots in action.

Cast (in order of appearance): Cheerleader, So and So, What's Her Face, The Ugly One, Intercom, Tompkins, Mrs. So-and-so-erson, Floor Tom, Pom Pom, Fatty, Trolls, A Shark, Strong Bad (Easter egg)

. . .
There may be some other series that could benefit from this, too; these just seemed like the most obvious. — Bill 15:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I've set up new templates that work as follows:

{{ prevnext | prev-actual-name | prev-show-as | next-actual-name | next-show-as }}
{{ pn | prev-actual-name | next-actual-name }}

Both are designed to work right before a line or paragraph of text, and will place the navigation box flush right with the text flowing around it.

[edit] examples

Version 1.0 Version 3.0

The King of Town unsuccessfully tries to deliver an invitation, Pom Pom talks crazy talk, and Detective Everybody reports that Homestar Runner is dead.

Uses {{prevnextnav|Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 1.0|Version 1.0|Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 3.0|Version 3.0}}

Issue 7 Issue 9

The girls join the Battle of the Bands.

Uses {{prevnext|Teen Girl Squad Issue 7|Issue 7|Teen Girl Squad Issue 9|Issue 9}}

some kinda robot butt IQ

Strong Bad Email #2

Uses {{pn|some kinda robot|butt IQ}}

#1 #3

Strong Bad Email #2

Uses {{prevnext|some kinda robot|#1|butt IQ|#3}}

highschool homsar

I've also been thinking that instead of having special templates for the first and last item in the series, we should just use a single template for everything and let each series "wrap around" at the endpoints. For example, this paragraph contains the proposed navigation for email #1. This means a little more work (for instance, when the next new Strong Bad email is released, we will have one extra step to update some kinda robot to change its "prev" link from highschool to the new email), but it should make the template system a lot easier to maintain, as well as giving the users a bit more functionality.

Bill 15:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I like the wrap-around idea! However, I do think it's probably best to have two separate templates: one for the sbemails (since they have a special format which includes the "Strong bad email #X" title (and can include the watch versions proposed in the discussion above,) and one for everything else. And yeah it's no big deal to update the prev/next on wrap arounds: (on the old current email, the first, and the new last email). It's just like adding a new element to a wrap-around doubly linked list! ;) --Stux 16:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what's next?

I'll have to think of a way to add the watch link to general toons. Right now I'm focusing on the emails. --Stux 16:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Strong Bad Emails completed, sirs. What's next? — Lapper (talk) 23:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Awesome! As discussed above, we were looking into expanding this feature for use in general toons. Dunno if this should continue in a different page or not. --Stux 01:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
An aside: I just thought this dicussion I found, was interesting given this current thread. Oh, and I like alliteration. --Stux 18:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Are we happy with the watch button the side, or did we like it in the middle? I R F 16:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
At least in my opinion, definitely the side. It was too distracting in the middle. Or something. --Stux 17:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
This project discussion continues here. Note: {{pn}} and {{prevnext}} were eventually combined into one template and renamed {{prevnextnav}}.
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